CDNMAN 42
Legend
Platinum Level
Yes spend over an hour getting to final table 2 positions from the money and the good old algorithm strikes again
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/2253gO6pE
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/2253gO6pE
CDNMAN 42
Legend
Platinum Level
response
If you review the hand you will see that in mid position I raised 3BB and was Jammed then I called from my experience and perspective that was the right play NOT A WEAK PLAY
If you review the hand you will see that in mid position I raised 3BB and was Jammed then I called from my experience and perspective that was the right play NOT A WEAK PLAY
Luvepoker
Lost in the twilight zone
Community Guide
You really only had 2 options how to play this hand and you played it correctly in my opinion. Was not weak at all.
IADaveMark
Rock Star
Silver Level
On the shove, you were at best 76/24 (vs AJ-). There is the possibility you were 24/76 (vs AK), a thin chance you were hosed if they had AA, KK, QQ. But very often you were going to be flipping vs. an underpair like you were.
At 12bb, that is, of course, very often going to be a shove. However, as you said, you were 2 off the money so a lot of ICM considerations are kicking in there. Specifically, there are 3 people at your own table who have shorter stacks than you (including one with <2 bb!). You said this was the final table so there is no one else to consider waiting for.
To me, the raise pre could possibly have been a shove/fold decision rather than your 3x raise. Saving that raise alone would have bought you another orbit. But when you got 3-bet shoved on? You need to let that go and wait for the others to bust out.
Yeah, it's hard to fold AQ but I've min-cashed plenty of tournaments folding hands like that on/near the bubble.
Ironically, I had a similar situation last year. I was the bubble boy in a huge RunGood tournament last summer. I raised 2.5bb of my 14 or so bb AQ pre from MP and villain had limp/shoved AA UTG. At that point, I felt I needed to call it (just like you) because I was going to be left with about 11bb. I should have waited it out and turned my $575 into $981. (He went on to be part of an 11-way chop for $26k each!)
At 12bb, that is, of course, very often going to be a shove. However, as you said, you were 2 off the money so a lot of ICM considerations are kicking in there. Specifically, there are 3 people at your own table who have shorter stacks than you (including one with <2 bb!). You said this was the final table so there is no one else to consider waiting for.
To me, the raise pre could possibly have been a shove/fold decision rather than your 3x raise. Saving that raise alone would have bought you another orbit. But when you got 3-bet shoved on? You need to let that go and wait for the others to bust out.
Yeah, it's hard to fold AQ but I've min-cashed plenty of tournaments folding hands like that on/near the bubble.
Ironically, I had a similar situation last year. I was the bubble boy in a huge RunGood tournament last summer. I raised 2.5bb of my 14 or so bb AQ pre from MP and villain had limp/shoved AA UTG. At that point, I felt I needed to call it (just like you) because I was going to be left with about 11bb. I should have waited it out and turned my $575 into $981. (He went on to be part of an 11-way chop for $26k each!)
MAGICUZ
Legend
Bronze Level
I would play this hand exactly the same way as you, in my opinion it was played correctly.In a dollar tournament, I would even call with A10, don't look at the bubble.You're just unlucky, I face this every tournament, it's normal
makisaa
Legend
Loyaler
AQ are very good cards, and it is justified to go all in here, but I rarely go all-in with an AQo. Also you were just two positions from the money and you had a nice stack. I think it would be wiser to be calmer and wait a little.
rock0001
Legend
Bronze Level
with 13.5 bb shoving preflop might be the best choice, because if any villain makes a 3 bet you will be in a tough spot in which you either call and hope villain had A10, AJ, KQ, KJ or a pair of jacks or lower or you fold and lose almost 25% of your stack. so its more simple to just shove and hope you are dominating against a weaker hand or in a coinflip scenario.
M
mikeajax15
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Yes this is the way to go.
In this spot you dont really want to induce to much.
So min raising range would polarized.
Value AA-99 AK and AQs
Bottom A8s, A9s, K9s- KJs, Q9s - QJs etc.
To balance it out with suited blockers.
Your mid range like KQs and AQ etc is just a jam.
BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch
Visionary
Bronze Level
You're playing a $1 tourn so you're not playing the most sophisticated player and they will put you at risk with almost any 2 cards.
You have at least 2 people to go through that have you covered and the BB has you covered 3x so they're more than likely calling you if you shove.
If someone calls that has you covered then you can hope at best having 2 overs or you'll be a coin flip as you ended up being, at worst you're against AK which is improbable since you have an Ace.
The best situation there is a fold from everyone and you just take down the blinds but again the BB is going to call at that $1 level.
The other thing is you have 3 ppl that are almost half your stack and one that's going to be at risk in an orbit (or less) so your play makes less sense to me.
Even if you double up there, you're still just above most of the folks at the table and there are still at least 4 folks that if you get involved in a hand after you double up with can still do serious damage to you even if you have them covered.
Overall there isn't anything stack wise to gain here and the play makes even less sense to me.
If you raise and just took down the blinds then it really won't affect your play since you have a few folks underneath you chip wise and your situation with paying the blinds really won't change either.
So even a going after the blinds from late position doesn't make that much sense at that level unless the person is uber tight.
From that position you're in is even more risky. But again, you have the chip leader in the BB so again. . . you're probably going to get action if they have anything at that level.
I don't see how anyone could tell you to put all of your chips in the middle of the table while if you basically sit out can cash in a very short time with basically losing 1 orbit's worth of blinds, lol.
Makes zero sense to me. The only way that happens is if that person IGNORES TOURN STRUCTURE AND JUST THINKS ABOUT THE CARDS.
You should raise there to see how the action goes and if gets nasty then bail if you get too much action.
Calling is too passive but if you can see a flop cheaply and flop something while still being to get away from going all in would be better than going all in like that on the bubble to me.
I was never big on tourns but I don't think playing a big hand like that in that situation is the best way to go about someone's business of playing tournaments. But whatever, its just my opinion.
Thanks for sharing the hand. I enjoyed thinking about the hand and the situation.
You have at least 2 people to go through that have you covered and the BB has you covered 3x so they're more than likely calling you if you shove.
If someone calls that has you covered then you can hope at best having 2 overs or you'll be a coin flip as you ended up being, at worst you're against AK which is improbable since you have an Ace.
The best situation there is a fold from everyone and you just take down the blinds but again the BB is going to call at that $1 level.
The other thing is you have 3 ppl that are almost half your stack and one that's going to be at risk in an orbit (or less) so your play makes less sense to me.
Even if you double up there, you're still just above most of the folks at the table and there are still at least 4 folks that if you get involved in a hand after you double up with can still do serious damage to you even if you have them covered.
Overall there isn't anything stack wise to gain here and the play makes even less sense to me.
If you raise and just took down the blinds then it really won't affect your play since you have a few folks underneath you chip wise and your situation with paying the blinds really won't change either.
So even a going after the blinds from late position doesn't make that much sense at that level unless the person is uber tight.
From that position you're in is even more risky. But again, you have the chip leader in the BB so again. . . you're probably going to get action if they have anything at that level.
I don't see how anyone could tell you to put all of your chips in the middle of the table while if you basically sit out can cash in a very short time with basically losing 1 orbit's worth of blinds, lol.
Makes zero sense to me. The only way that happens is if that person IGNORES TOURN STRUCTURE AND JUST THINKS ABOUT THE CARDS.
You should raise there to see how the action goes and if gets nasty then bail if you get too much action.
Calling is too passive but if you can see a flop cheaply and flop something while still being to get away from going all in would be better than going all in like that on the bubble to me.
I was never big on tourns but I don't think playing a big hand like that in that situation is the best way to go about someone's business of playing tournaments. But whatever, its just my opinion.
Thanks for sharing the hand. I enjoyed thinking about the hand and the situation.
IADaveMark
Rock Star
Silver Level
And this is where the ICM calculations kick in. It's almost the poster hand for ICM situations. You aren't going to get paid by having more chips; you are going to get paid by having 2 people bust out before you.
dreamer13
Legend
Platinum Level
This is a tricky question, the smaller the stack sizes, the better the shove looks, and the more often Villain 4Bets/Folds, the more often we should semi-bluff all-in with AQ. In general, it's hard to profitably bet AQ preflop with stacks of 100bb or more, you have to be very selective in these situations. This does not mean that in principle it is impossible to do so. You can, but much less often than most players allow themselves.
rabman50
Enthusiast
Silver Level
In this ICM situation I would only min-raise with the intention of folding to a three-bet. There are three stacks with fewer chips than you. The dynamics near the bubble are much different than earlier in the tournament. If you only consider chipEV than calling the shove could be correct, but if you consider cashEV than this is a clear fold. I would never open for 3BB from a 13BB stack. You can get the same information/result with a min open to 2BB.
G
GIB
Rock Star
Silver Level
There is not enough information to assess the situation. But for me it was preferable to immediately go all-in for resteal, this is possible if the players behind you are not very active. AQ against 66 is worth 45.3% and 54.6%, almost a coin. Of course, it is preferable to calculate in ICMIZER.
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
As others have said, a program like ICMizer is ideal for analysing a spot like this. So I plugged it in, and AQo is either an open jam or a raise-fold in this situation. If you choose to open jam, you can profitably play 12% of hands, whereas you can only play 10% of hands, if you min-raise. If you raise to 3BB, as you did, your range drop further to 9%, and this is why, large non all-in raises out of a short stack are not recommended. It force you to only play the very best hands, and you lose to much, when you raise-fold.
Given that the open jamming range is wider than the min-raising range, open jamming will be the most profitable play, if the players behind are only calling with the hands, they are supposed to call with. If however there are calling stations behind, then min-raising will be the better play, and AQo is then a raise-fold, when BB moves in on you. Only 99+, AK, AQs can be profitably called, and this is even assuming, he is jamming 29% of hands, which most players in a 1$ SnG are not.
So in conclusion against good players, like maybe those you will find in the 5$ 45-mans, you should open jam this hand and expect BB to lay down his 66, in which case you avoid playing the flip and pick up a round on blinds and antes uncontested. Against the player pool at the 1$ limit however you should strongly consider to min-raise and then fold, when BB moves in on you.
Given that the open jamming range is wider than the min-raising range, open jamming will be the most profitable play, if the players behind are only calling with the hands, they are supposed to call with. If however there are calling stations behind, then min-raising will be the better play, and AQo is then a raise-fold, when BB moves in on you. Only 99+, AK, AQs can be profitably called, and this is even assuming, he is jamming 29% of hands, which most players in a 1$ SnG are not.
So in conclusion against good players, like maybe those you will find in the 5$ 45-mans, you should open jam this hand and expect BB to lay down his 66, in which case you avoid playing the flip and pick up a round on blinds and antes uncontested. Against the player pool at the 1$ limit however you should strongly consider to min-raise and then fold, when BB moves in on you.
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Not if the opponent play well, because then he only call with 99+, as far as pairs are concerned.
CDNMAN 42
Legend
Platinum Level
Okay now KK
yes in an 18 player SNGO final table get KK and well history repeats itself...https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/9253xsDJE