99 UTG. Too aggressive ?

[Bentheman87]

"Ben i tend to disagree. You are OOP. If you get a caller (raising from UTG so very likely you will get a caller) how do you play the flop? There is alot of money in there, so you either bet off half your stack (and are now committed) or what? check/fold? what other play is there? Unless everybody folds, once you make your cbet you are basically pot commited anyways. Limping is pathetic because then you are basically playing for set value only, which isn't worth it with blinds that size."

True we are OoP against any caller besides the blinds, but position isn't as important now than it was earlier, because more hands get all in either preflop or on the flop compared to earlier where there was more postflop play with small blinds. If we get one caller and we both miss the flop, usually the first bettor wins and we can push all in first. If we get one caller we can shove the flop unless it's very bad. J 4 3 is a good flop since there's only one overcard. If it comes A K 7 then we can just check fold and still have a playable stack of 1200. If we limp the only time we have to play for set value is if a ton of other players limp as well, if we limp and it folds to the blinds who call and check we can bet the flop in the dark if they both check to us.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Ok, so to justify my play, the idea behind the raise was.

1. ideally, represent so much strength that everybody folds and I steal the blinds
2. if I get shoved from someone in EP or MP, fold. I'm behind their range
3. if I get shoved from SB or BB, call. I may be ahead of their range.
4. If I get called, shove the flop if it has no ace and no more than 1 overcard. check and fold to a flop bet otherwise. reassess if we see the turn.

I think the overall strategy may be +EV, but I have no clue how to evaluate this.

In real life, villain had AA and beat me. I do find it strange that he called and did not at least min raise to isolate preflop.

 

[Four Dogs]

I didn't read through all the posts, but I did read ChuckTs OP. Usually he's right on the mark, but in this case I think folding 99 UTG is a bit too nitty.

This is a hand you must play given your M. Limping while a legitimate deep stack option is out of the question here. Your M is too low to play for set value, but not so high that a shove is manditory. Without any information, you must assume that 99 is the best hand at the moment, but barring a flopped set, will be very difficult to play post flop vs more than one opponent. A raise will most likely take the hand down without a fight and vs one caller it's likely to hold up on the flop as well. I'd bring it in for about 300 and fold to a RR. Any flat caller will in most cases be holding 2 highs or a lower pair. I think I'm checking a flop with any ace, but betting out vs. one overcard. If you get RR's on the flop you can bail and still have enough left in the tank for a shove later on.

I just can't see how playing the hand this way is worse than a shove. Your probably going to get the same callers either way, but the later play leaves you no back door.

I don't like shove on the flop. If you check and he bets then you can shove, but checking it down is preferable.

 

[deathduck]

I think as played this is not bad. There is only 1 over card to your 99, and he didn't reraise PF so he doesn't have a high PP. Shoving PF isn't horrible either, you are almost at 10bb but it is a little much. I like how you played it.

 

[Bentheman87]

"You should be much happier to shove for ex K9o on the button than to shove 99 here."

Why is that? I'm pretty sure the chances of two remaining players having a better hand than k9 are greater than the chance of 8 remaining players having a better hand than 99.

 

[feitr]

"You should be much happier to shove for ex K9o on the button than to shove 99 here."

Why is that? I'm pretty sure the chances of two remaining players having a better hand than k9 are greater than the chance of 8 remaining players having a better hand than 99.

Sure, but they are still going to be on a similar calling range as before and now you only need 2 players to fold instead of 8 or whatever size ring you are playing.

You don't shove K9 on the button and hope you get called (at least i don't)...

 

[Toad]

In HoH Volume 2 I remember there was a part where Harrington has 88 (maybe it was 99, not quite sure) utg with an M in the orange zone, between 5 and 10 just like OP, and there's a great discussion on the best play. If I remember correctly he said folding is not unreasonable in an akward situation where playing the hand almost commits you, but he recommended raising 4x BB and calling a shove. I don't have the book in front of me and it's been a while since I read it so that might not be 100% accurate.

I had this exact situation yesterday in the PS $3 buyin. I was UTG with an M of about 9 or 10, raised my 99 4XBB, the dealer shoved and I called. Dealer turned QQ and I was out. I've been thinking all day that I made a bad call, so I'd like to read the HOH section on it.

Do you rememeber what part of the book it was in? I'm only half way through the first book so far.

 

[Bentheman87]

"I had this exact situation yesterday in the PS $3 buyin. I was UTG with an M of about 9 or 10, raised my 99 4XBB, the dealer shoved and I called. Dealer turned QQ and I was out. I've been thinking all day that I made a bad call, so I'd like to read the HOH section on it.

Do you rememeber what part of the book it was in? I'm only half way through the first book so far."

It was on P. 223 of Volume 2, the player is dealt 88 utg at an 8 handed table, and he says 10 10 + are definetly raising hands and 66 or worse are folding hands but the middle pairs are difficult to play. Then he analyzed all the different plays and in the end said raising 4x BB and probably calling a shove is the play he would make.

 

[mattsat]

umm i have seen videos on situations like these and they had a rule with it if u are going to shove and dont get called by any1 it needs to increase your stack by 20% and that is how u should make tour decisions

 

[soonerdel]

i think you only have two options... fold pre flop or shove all in...

 

[soccerfreakjj10]

i read the first couple of replies and chuck is totally right and bentheman is totally wrong.

You should be open folding your M is too high for a shove too low for a raise in my opinion.

but with that situation you should be shoving that flop

 

[Bentheman87]

"i read the first couple of replies and chuck is totally right and bentheman is totally wrong."

I really don't understand the people saying we should be folding this. It's simple, we likely have the best hand so we raise, how can you guys argue against that? There's only a small chance (18% against 8 players) that someone else at the table has a bigger pair. At least limp in...

 

[soccerfreakjj10]

full tilt poker Game #6168180195: $22 + $2 Sit & Go (Turbo) (46950311), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:53:00 ET - 2008/04/25
Seat 1: SABAKABARABAKA (1,660)
Seat 2: Black_Mamba_555 (1,230)
Seat 3: thalocksmith (4,095)
Seat 5: shipit1984 (2,235)
Seat 7: JustinZee (1,570)
Seat 8: soccerfreakjj10 (1,440)
Seat 9: jimthull (1,270)
shipit1984 posts the small blind of 50
JustinZee posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to soccerfreakjj10 [9h 9s]
soccerfreakjj10 has 15 seconds left to act
soccerfreakjj10 folds

 

[ChuckTs]

A+ imo

 

[Four Dogs]

I give it a B-.

 

[AlexeiVronsky]

I think a raise, a limp/raise all in, open jam, and a fold are all viable here. If I have solid aggressive opponents behind I favour limp/reraise, tight players raise and push the flop, they're unlikely to have hit that board, and if you have loose players, if they're loose and strong I'll shove taking the probable small edge against them, if they're loose and weak I'll fold and take a later situation where I'm more of a favourite than a coinflip.

 

[Four Dogs]

You shove w/99? What kind of calling range are you looking for that isn't at best a coinflip and on average worse than that? This might be viable short stack play, but a bit impetuous otherwise.

 

[AlexeiVronsky]

He is fairly shortstacked here with an M of 9, preferably you want to be looking for a situation for an all-in reraise preflop, but you're UTG with a hand that has value. If you shove or otherwise get all-in preflop you don't have to worry about any positional disadvantage on the flop and you maximize pressure with the open jam.