$9.90 NLHE MTT Rebuy: KQs With Tough Decision on Flop!

seeyouthru

seeyouthru

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Early stage of tournament.
Blinds 50/100, 7 handed table

UTG(Hero)68bb.
Utg+2(V1) 53bb.
Btn(V2) 76bb.

Hero Picks up KdQd, Openraises 2.1x.
V1 flats, V2 from Btn Raises 5.4bb.
Hero calls so does V1.

Flop(18.4bb) Qc3c4d,
Check,check, V2 bets 9.2bb, Hero raises 19.4bb, V1 shoves 47bb,
V2 calls, Hero Folds!

V1 shows 5s6d V2 shows 7h7s.

So preflop standard open for me. i only have read on v1 that they are very loose splashy spewy player and i have no reads on V2.

V2 3bets fairly small from btn so i decided to just see a flop oop.
good flop for us but v2 can have kk AA & QA also in his range which beat us.
so keeping that in mind i decided to checkraise small with the intention that if v2 4bets we Fold.
So we X/R and V1 Jams ALL in Which i am not worried about because he is playing a ton of wide range lot of weak Qx and flush draws which we dominate But When V2 Calls i had no option but to let Go.

But to my surprise V2 shows 77 and V1 shows 56o.

did i play it right?
 
Viparida

Viparida

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I think that without information, you did. With 2 shoving even if you were winning there would be the chance of the turn and river making their hands better. In the ende they were donkeys throwing away money but there`s not much to do about it. It happens sometimes.
 
3

300HPGOD

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I like folding in this spot. There are times when we are ahead here but it would mostly be against draws and two people jamming over your check raise, I wouldnt think a one pair hand would be good. Too many times we will be up against a V2 hand that is AQ or better and also against a V1 hand that could easily be Ax of clubs which we are beating but not by much. This would be much closer of a decision to me if you were going against one player but this deep, with two players jamming over my check raise, I am folding one pair pretty easily without much worry. The times that they flip over what they flip over in this hand are what they are and you just make a note on both of them and play on. Too deep to call off here.
 
F

fundiver199

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I prefer to just check-call the flop and then evaluate later. It is a 3-bet pot, and KQ dont beat anything, that V2 would 3-bet and then C-bet for value. So you essentially have a bluff-catcher, and raising is inviting both opponents to play pretty close to perfect giving you action only with hands, that crush you, and some strong draws. As played I do agree with the fold though, and the fact one of them showed up with 77 just show, how bad he is. Make a note and look forward to bet for value in future hands against him :)
 
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Delfino

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Good fold. The pot odds are nice but against two rivals with that kind of agression I would fold.
 
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Sidetracked

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I agree with fund.

C/r the flop is overplaying your hand, particularly when your pf range is capped, and V2's pf range is not.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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The fold on the flop is justified to this kind of action - so dont be beaten up when you see you had the best hand - just note both villans accordingly and move on with what is left in your stack.

Now - preflop action is just fine and pretty standard - the flop is where it all goes off the rails - when we call the 3b OOP and flop top pair with a backdoor flush draw - this is an easy check-call on this flop. Why are we raising? Are you raising for value or as a bluff? If you are raising for value - what worse hands are you targeting to call your raise? The fact is our hand really doesn't need much protection and we don't want to get blown off our top pair or value towner against some overs villan may still have like AA since we block KK and QQ - plus with the current size of the pot we can probably get it all in by the river if necessary -- sooooo, the check call here is pretty standard for sure.

The only turn card we are really not going to like is an A, a club isn't the end of the world, not everyone has a flush draw every single time the flop comes down with 2 of one suit - so i would still check call when an insignificant club rolls off. As long as the river doesn't bring in a 4 liner of some sort or a random A - i would still likely check call most of any of our villans remaining bet sizes.

Point is we can take this showdown without too many worries here - but when we raise with no real logic behind we are giving club draws and worse Qx a chance to blow us off of our hand -- here we see two hands who decided to go nuts and get it in with the worst of it. Don't be scared of these spots - don't fear the monsters under the bed, if we run into AQ (which we block) it is what it is and there isn't much we can do -- check call all the way down - if turn checks thru, then value bet safe rivers - no big deal.

Hope this helps
 
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fundiver199

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so keeping that in mind i decided to checkraise small with the intention that if v2 4bets we Fold.

Basically this mean, you were "raising for information", and this hand is a perfect illustration of, why this is something, we never want to do. The "information", you got, did not help you to make a better decision.
 
swerdnase

swerdnase

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If this is in the early stages of a standard R/A tournament, and assuming that villain understands the format, then I don't like this fold. These types of tournaments are typically extremely loose during rebuys since this stage is all about rapid chip accumulation.

Given that everybody is playing so loose, the chances that villain is trapping with an overpair is greatly reduced. I'd say KQ is usually good here, as AQ would have more than likely raised your bet (which is too small, IMO). A set is much more likely here than an overpair as your mini-raise lets a lot of underpairs in cheaply, as is something like a big draw (Axc or 56c are well within range).

With 47bb in play and villain betting 20% of it on the flop, I would have just shoved here and put them to the test.
 
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UkoChebuko

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Such a weird spot. I understand your logic, but still...You can't fold there. You can't just raise fold. With this hand. I don't hate so much the raise, but if I do that for some reason I will just shove. Raise-shove...But I prefer call...

And don't use raise, call or bet "for info". This just don't work. I have some friends, they do that. "Min raise for info". And everytime the same. "I will raise for an info" , And I "Don't do that", but too late. The other guy (villain) call. Or raise. Or call and bet small at the next street. And I "What do you know now?". He is looking at me with some dumb look. "OK, you raised for an info, what do you know now?", "Make a decision, the time will over". So funny :D. He just don't know what to do, that's why he made "raise for info". No such thing...
 
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fundiver199

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If this is in the early stages of a standard R/A tournament, and assuming that villain understands the format, then I don't like this fold. These types of tournaments are typically extremely loose during rebuys since this stage is all about rapid chip accumulation.

I agree, that there is often a lot of loose action during the rebuy phase of a R/A tournament, but its actually for the opposite reason. Its because a lot of players dontunderstand the format, or they are just playing for fun. When the add-ons are purchased, the value of each chip goes down, and therefore your goal is to make it to the add-on with as few rebuys as possible. You pay for instance 2$ for a rebuy of 3.000 chips, but after the add-ons the 3.000 chips, which you won in another "flip", are only worth 1,7$.

So its almost like playing on the bubble or the final table, where there is a lot of ICM-pressure. You want to be more conservative during the rebuy phase because of the impending devaluation of your chips, not less. If an R+A game is tough, it can actually make a lot of sense to not even register until the very last moment to avoid getting into set-up situations like running your AK into a big pair and having to rebuy half the time.
 
swerdnase

swerdnase

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I agree, that there is often a lot of loose action during the rebuy phase of a R/A tournament, but its actually for the opposite reason. Its because a lot of players dontunderstand the format, or they are just playing for fun. When the add-ons are purchased, the value of each chip goes down, and therefore your goal is to make it to the add-on with as few rebuys as possible. You pay for instance 2$ for a rebuy of 3.000 chips, but after the add-ons the 3.000 chips, which you won in another "flip", are only worth 1,7$.

So its almost like playing on the bubble or the final table, where there is a lot of ICM-pressure. You want to be more conservative during the rebuy phase because of the impending devaluation of your chips, not less. If an R+A game is tough, it can actually make a lot of sense to not even register until the very last moment to avoid getting into set-up situations like running your AK into a big pair and having to rebuy half the time.


Obviously the ideal is to make it past the rebuy stage without spending any additional money at all, but that normally doesn't happen. If the goal was purely to maximize ROI, then what you're saying makes sense. But for me, making deep runs is the goal, so having as many chips as possible in play is important. The way most R/A payouts are structured—at least the ones I've seen—even a min-cash is like 4-6x the buy-in. So yeah, spending as little as possible on buying chips will totally maximize ROI on any given R/A event.

The counterstrategy to that is to expend as many buy-ins as the min-cash dictates, try and build a massive stack, get into the money and essentially freeroll from there. With nearly 6:1 pot odds to call and healthy stacks in play, winning this pot achieves that goal. So if building a massive stack is OP's objective, then this is too good of a spot to fold. But if maximizing ROI is the objective, then sure, folding is likely the correct play.
 
seeyouthru

seeyouthru

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Not an Add-on Tourney this one mates [emoji23]
 
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