88 w/LAP limper; $4/180

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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New table and I have yet to play a hand.

The limper has limped half his hands so far (~10 hands), and has shown down very weak holdings. Basically loose-passive fish.

The rest of the table has either not played a hand, or has limped one and not shown down anything. Tight table in general.

Just wanted some input:

Pokerstars Game (?) Tournament #65550947, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/10/29 - 12:54:53 (ET)
Table '65550947 11' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Caroline McD (1915 in chips)
Seat 2: Konglish (4045 in chips)
Seat 3: warren-luk26 (3822 in chips)
Seat 5: DiskoDon (3745 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero (4246 in chips)
Seat 7: kl147 (5080 in chips)
Seat 8: wowcyb (8785 in chips)
Seat 9: UPayMee!! (1395 in chips)
Caroline McD: posts small blind 100
Konglish: posts big blind 200

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [
club8.gif
spade8.gif
]
warren-luk26: calls 200
DiskoDon: folds
Hero
:
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Not great position. Do you read them as limp-callers, or just limpers?


I'd be inclined to limp behind and set-mine. Good chance this table will let you limp and limp in some more money into the pot behind you giving you better odds.

The other option is to raise and play it aggressively, (raise to 800, c-bet if appropriate) which probably has more effect on the later hands than just on this single hand, meaning by playing it aggressively and future hands similarly you might affect the table dynamics and either encourage others to play more aggressively, or to sit back and allow you the be table captain.


Here's to hoping we'll get some other opinions/thoughts ...
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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This guy limp-called with A4o before, and has shown down several weak hands.
 
tosborn

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The other option is to raise and play it aggressively, (raise to 800, c-bet if appropriate) which probably has more effect on the later hands than just on this single hand, meaning by playing it aggressively and future hands similarly you might affect the table dynamics and either encourage others to play more aggressively, or to sit back and allow you the be table captain.

Wow, these were my thoughts exactly. Just because the table will allow you to limp, doesn't make this the best option. Villain may have 72o and fold on the flop anyway.

There is no such thing as implied odds if villain will not call a postflop bet. Our implied odds really only factor in if villain makes this call. We really need to be able to put villain a better range to determine what our postflop play should be. Raising is the only option in my opinion.

Sorry this so short. There is more that I want to add to this, but, I don't have the time right now.
 
Melkor

Melkor

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I think a raise to 700-800 is needed here. Has he been raised before since you sat down? Just to know if he calls whether or not that represents a big hand. We can either pick up the hand now or know we are facing a strong hand against someone and look for a favourable flop. But at a rather tight table, a call plays into their hands to see cheap flops with ace rag or king 7 suited etc.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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ok part two.

If villain has limped with A4o and similarly weak hands (he has), I'm rarely if ever limping this. We're losing a lot of value, and our hand is pretty vulnerable.

I think the question of whether or not he's calling our raise is a little irrelevant. (edit: contradicted myself :)) While we have to be cautious with our hand and protect it, we're way ahead of his range and wouldn't even mind a call.

The main point IMO is to raise enough to isolate him, but not enough to commit us. 800 is about right.

Pokerstars Game (?) Tournament #65550947, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/10/29 - 12:54:53 (ET)
Table '65550947 11' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Caroline McD (1915 in chips)
Seat 2: Konglish (4045 in chips)
Seat 3: warren-luk26 (3822 in chips)
Seat 5: DiskoDon (3745 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero (4246 in chips)
Seat 7: kl147 (5080 in chips)
Seat 8: wowcyb (8785 in chips)
Seat 9: UPayMee!! (1395 in chips)
Caroline McD: posts small blind 100
Konglish: posts big blind 200

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [
club8.gif
spade8.gif
]
warren-luk26: calls 200
DiskoDon: folds
Hero : raises 600 to 800
kl147: folds
wowcyb: folds
UPayMee!!: folds
Caroline McD: folds
Konglish: folds
warren-luk26: calls 600

Flop:
[
heart7.gif
heart6.gif
club5.gif
]
warren-luk26: checks
Hero
: ...

Bet size?
 
Last edited:
Melkor

Melkor

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I would bet around 1000. Should see the villain fold. 45 may be out of even the villains range and that or 89 are the only hands checking this flop, and 89 is unlikely.
 
Q

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my question is what would you do if another heart came?
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

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Vilain will probably call 1,000 with a flush draw. If he is very weak, he may even call with overcards. If hero bets 1,000 any heart on the turn or river will be a big problem since hero will have invested a big chunk of the stack and folding will be difficult.

If hero bets the pot (about 1,700) hero would be pot-committed so it is better to bet all-in.

My preference is to go all-in and maximize the chance to pick up the pot. If called, hero is at least 2:1 favorite most of the time.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Villain won't call with bottom pair or overcards if we push. We want calls from those hands. Yes, getting outdrawn sucks, but when they're drawing to that many (or few) outs, we want them to stay in, but they need to pay.
 
rob5775

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I like a half to three quarters flop bet, whatever you CB's have been. The flop is very good for our hand but we don't want to bet too little. Not as worried about the flush draw as I am about the villain holding two overcards. He might call a small bet hoping to improve his two overs (thats what loose/passive fish do). But he might call a 1000 bet also, which is what we want.

EDIT: Taylor beat me too it @$#$^^^^
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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<3

k im drunk I'll post the next part cause I want some more discussion.

I was gonna skip the flop since I think it's standard (~1/2 pot +), but stuck it in anyways. Well here's the turn:

Pokerstars Game (?) Tournament #65550947, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/10/29 - 12:54:53 (ET)
Table '65550947 11' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Caroline McD (1915 in chips)
Seat 2: Konglish (4045 in chips)
Seat 3: warren-luk26 (3822 in chips)
Seat 5: DiskoDon (3745 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero (4246 in chips)
Seat 7: kl147 (5080 in chips)
Seat 8: wowcyb (8785 in chips)
Seat 9: UPayMee!! (1395 in chips)
Caroline McD: posts small blind 100
Konglish: posts big blind 200

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [
club8.gif
spade8.gif
]
warren-luk26: calls 200
DiskoDon: folds
Hero : raises 600 to 800
kl147: folds
wowcyb: folds
UPayMee!!: folds
Caroline McD: folds
Konglish: folds
warren-luk26: calls 600

Flop:
[
heart7.gif
heart6.gif
club5.gif
]
warren-luk26: checks
Hero : bets 1200
warren-luk26: calls 1200

Turn:
[
heart7.gif
heart6.gif
club5.gif
] [
diamJ.gif
]
warren-luk26: bets 1000
Hero
: ...
 
rob5775

rob5775

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Ug, WTF is that bet? Calls the flop, then leads with 1/4 pot bet? I'm confused (maybe cause I have been drinking also).

We can't call. We are down to 10 BBs so we can still shut it down and have a little maneuvering for the next two orbits or we can shove. I don't believe the J helped him. I really don't know. We have no FE if we shove because villain pot committed himself. But his line is so weak.... argh!

Ok... I shove. Our 88 may be best and we have a redraw if not. I'll think it through some more and see if I can come up with a better argument, but that's my poker gut talking right now.:D
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Ug, WTF is that bet? Calls the flop, then leads with 1/4 pot bet? I'm confused (maybe cause I have been drinking also).

We can't call. We are down to 10 BBs so we can still shut it down and have a little maneuvering for the next two orbits or we can shove. I don't believe the J helped him. I really don't know. We have no FE if we shove because villain pot committed himself. But his line is so weak.... argh!


hahah - my sentiments exactly.

What does this bet represent?

If he called the flop with a hand that beats us, why would he bet out on a 'scary' overcard of a turn? If he had a jack (unlikely, but he's a donkey), why would he lead into us? Wouldn't he ch-r here with a hand that beats us?
 
NineLions

NineLions

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A4, blocking bet hoping you'll call and let him see the river?

's about I can come up with.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Tight table in general.

If villain has limped with A4o and similarly weak hands (he has), I'm rarely if ever limping this. We're losing a lot of value, and our hand is pretty vulnerable.

I think the question of whether or not he's calling our raise is a little irrelevant. (edit: contradicted myself :)) While we have to be cautious with our hand and protect it, we're way ahead of his range and wouldn't even mind a call.

The main point IMO is to raise enough to isolate him, but not enough to commit us. 800 is about right.

I just realized I missed this first part about the rest of the table being tight; the main reason for my leaning toward limping was because of the early position and not wanting to be stuck with extra players behind us in the hand, but if it's not likely anyone else is going to stick around to a raise, then yeah, I can see raising as the best option.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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hahah - my sentiments exactly.

What does this bet represent?

If I know true LAP donkeys (and I deal to quite a few every week), I think the process goes like this:

Pre-flop: "Any two cards can win at this game! I'll call with J4"
Flop part 1: "Yay I have a straight draw! Check!"
Flop part 2" "Yay I have a straight draw! Call!"
Turn: "Yay now I have jacks and a straight draw! Bet!"

Dumb though it is, to me this smacks of a transparently played jack-rag hand hand to me. I've seen J3 played similarly, ditto J9 and J8.

A4 is also possible, but I'd have expected it to check and try to get a free card.
 
Falloooooon

Falloooooon

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I vote for what Oz said. I think the fish became a lucksack for one hand at least.

That said, you're down to playing push/fold poker with your remaining stack if you let him have it, and it's not a certainty that he has top pair by any means even if that's what we think is most likely. I would shove back at him here.
 
tosborn

tosborn

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The question that we need to answer is "What is villains RAISING range?"

If he is truly passive then this bet represents a lot. This really looks like a bet that is trying to get his stack into the middle by the river. I would not be surprised to see a straight, two pair, or top pair/flush draw here a good percentage of the time.

I'm actually leaning more towards 70/30 in favor of a villain made hand. This means I'm about 50/50 fold or call. Very tough spot since we are priced into seeing this to the end. I probably call given the pot odds, but, I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for laying this down.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Well keep in mind tos that this is only after 10 hands. I know he's loose - that's a certainty because he's played half his hands exactly like a LAP would, showing down ace-rag and other shitty hands. I don't quite know how passive he is postflop though.

I think folding is incredibly weak here - if we're betting this much on the flop, leaving villain with <the size of the pot left in his stack, we've got to stick him in. A jack would suck, but tbh I really don't see it playing this way.

Pokerstars Game (?) Tournament #65550947, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/10/29 - 12:54:53 (ET)
Table '65550947 11' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Caroline McD (1915 in chips)
Seat 2: Konglish (4045 in chips)
Seat 3: warren-luk26 (3822 in chips)
Seat 5: DiskoDon (3745 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero (4246 in chips)
Seat 7: kl147 (5080 in chips)
Seat 8: wowcyb (8785 in chips)
Seat 9: UPayMee!! (1395 in chips)
Caroline McD: posts small blind 100
Konglish: posts big blind 200

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [
club8.gif
spade8.gif
]
warren-luk26: calls 200
DiskoDon: folds
Hero : raises 600 to 800
kl147: folds
wowcyb: folds
UPayMee!!: folds
Caroline McD: folds
Konglish: folds
warren-luk26: calls 600

Flop:
[
heart7.gif
heart6.gif
club5.gif
]
warren-luk26: checks
Hero : bets 1200
warren-luk26: calls 1200

Turn:
[
heart7.gif
heart6.gif
club5.gif
] [
diamJ.gif
]
warren-luk26: bets 1000
Hero : raises 1246 to 2246 and is all-in
warren-luk26: calls 822 and is all-in

River:
[
heart7.gif
heart6.gif
club5.gif
diamJ.gif
] [
spade9.gif
]

Showdown:
warren-luk26: shows [
diam4.gif
heartA.gif
] (high card Ace)
Hero : shows [
club8.gif
spade8.gif
] (a straight Five to Nine)
Hero collected 7944 from pot

Bonus super happy points for NL :)
 
tosborn

tosborn

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The limper has limped half his hands so far (~10 hands), and has shown down very weak holdings. Basically loose-passive fish.

Taylor I thought that you meant he had actually played 10 hands LAP. Which to me meant that you had not seen him raise postflop in those 10 hands without a reason to do so.

Basically, my post was meant to point out that when a true LAP raises they are usually VERY STRONG.

In retrospect I really like your push much more than the turn call that I advocated. My thoughts were that he was going to get his money in no matter what we did here. Being first in is a better play even if we know that villain is going to push/call his stack on the river.

A4, blocking bet hoping you'll call and let him see the river.

Awesome read.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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ya, sorry. Didn't explain that point clearly enough.
 
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