suby_rafael
Legend
Silver Level
Look at the stack sizes .. we only have 14 big blinds. Raising would we very risky. I think unless we have a very strong hand or we are placed at the button or small blind we should not risk raising or even shoving. I personally like a fold here.
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WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
It of course depends on villains behind us. It seems like an easy min open to me and it depends on your point of view. This is a tournament in which we are going to have ro take risks to be able to win. While min raising is risky so is folding and I actually believe folding is the more risky play for our overall tournament.
So if we are tight from a decent stealing position now. Then the next few hands we will have to be even tighter so we are relying on picking up better hands than tjs in the next few hands... seems risky to hope that we do pick up a value hand to me..
So whike this is basically a naked steal our hand has equity and is very playable if called but heres the kicker...
There are two stacks behind us who cannot really flat call... thats not to say they cant and wont flat call. But usualky they will either jam or fold. This fact alone basically puts us in the button or cutoff. Also one of those stacks is in the bb which is generally the most likely to call our raise. Of course im forgetting being 3bet here which will happen but raise folding is not the end of the world here.
Hope this helps suby.. quite open to be proven wrong here. But I fail to see anything that doesnt make this an open.
So if we are tight from a decent stealing position now. Then the next few hands we will have to be even tighter so we are relying on picking up better hands than tjs in the next few hands... seems risky to hope that we do pick up a value hand to me..
So whike this is basically a naked steal our hand has equity and is very playable if called but heres the kicker...
There are two stacks behind us who cannot really flat call... thats not to say they cant and wont flat call. But usualky they will either jam or fold. This fact alone basically puts us in the button or cutoff. Also one of those stacks is in the bb which is generally the most likely to call our raise. Of course im forgetting being 3bet here which will happen but raise folding is not the end of the world here.
Hope this helps suby.. quite open to be proven wrong here. But I fail to see anything that doesnt make this an open.
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WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
Ok well if a book told you to do that then do that... dont worry about thinking for yourself.
Cmon how about letting common sense save the day.. do you really care that much if our stack gets reduced to 70k with the chance of making it 90k? Thats talking pure steal here..
If two of the remaining stacks were shorter(meaning we are priced into calling them) or if they are larger(meaning they are more liekly to flat call). Then I would concede shoving or folding is the best play here.
Too many people get caught up with this stack size. The absolute worst thing we can do in my opinion is play tightly and put ourselves in situations where we are shoving with under 10bbs often.. now we are risking a full stack when we could be ahead of the game with 15bbs or more. Just my thoughts here. Please prove me wrong. But saying a book told me too does not really mean anything...
Cmon how about letting common sense save the day.. do you really care that much if our stack gets reduced to 70k with the chance of making it 90k? Thats talking pure steal here..
If two of the remaining stacks were shorter(meaning we are priced into calling them) or if they are larger(meaning they are more liekly to flat call). Then I would concede shoving or folding is the best play here.
Too many people get caught up with this stack size. The absolute worst thing we can do in my opinion is play tightly and put ourselves in situations where we are shoving with under 10bbs often.. now we are risking a full stack when we could be ahead of the game with 15bbs or more. Just my thoughts here. Please prove me wrong. But saying a book told me too does not really mean anything...
Dubstep
Visionary
Silver Level
If you raise fold.. next hand get a good hand and double up. you just lost yourself 40k. and then so on and so on.. with this stack size you want to preserve your fold equity as much as possible. and you are priced in between the two 40k stacks. i think either folding or jamming is the play here and thats thinking for myself as i already said above in my op, and so did suby and so did ELKY or lee nelson.
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WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
Yes that is one consideration out of many. The key is to slso look at the positives of the play..
At the end of the day I dont care if im wrong about this. But I fail to see anything yet that makes me want to change my mind or reconsider.(the ripple effect point is s good start though. But that is also the same for folding)
So.. lets hear it. Change my mind about this cardschat
At the end of the day I dont care if im wrong about this. But I fail to see anything yet that makes me want to change my mind or reconsider.(the ripple effect point is s good start though. But that is also the same for folding)
So.. lets hear it. Change my mind about this cardschat
10058765
Legend
Loyaler
Yes that is one consideration out of many. The key is to slso look at the positives of the play..
At the end of the day I dont care if im wrong about this. But I fail to see anything yet that makes me want to change my mind or reconsider.(the ripple effect point is s good start though. But that is also the same for folding)
So.. lets hear it. Change my mind about this cardschat
Man, you all got me thinking....
Does the fact it's a turbo and the ante is 750 change your mind ?
I mean our M is just about 5,5 now, but will soon drop.
The M of the shorties is about 2,6.
If we make it 12K and one of the shorties shoves we'll have to call 28K into a 55K pot or fold....
Minraising means risking 12K to take down at least 15750 if everyone folds....
Pffff....this is hurting my brains but personally lean towards pushing here...
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WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
Ya the shorties are a bit too short to raise fold too.. but just wanted to get people thinking. Good to note that 6 or 7 bb stacks are not good to raise fold too. 9 bb and over is ok by the looks of it. So that leaves shoving... 2 stacks behind which cant knock us out. Seems like a relatively simple shove. The great thing about this type.of hand is that it runs well if called and isnt dominated that often.
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
If you're entering push/fold mode with 14bbs then I think that is a massive leak and you are severely handicapping your game. There is a lot more play in a 14bb stack than that IF you are a good player. If you get flatted your hand plays very well. by push/folding at 14bbs you are taking the maximum risk to win just 2-3bbs and you are negating your positional advantage throughout the hand, and removing any ability to outplay your opponents post flop.
If you min raise in this spot you are risking 12,000 to pick up 15,000 with a very playable suited broadway hand. Seems like a no brainer to me. Also a min-raise looks stronger than a shove here, I think.
I've noticed in a lot of other hands you've posted you are making a lot of push-fold decisions with 8-12 bb stacks. The way you avoid that is by playing 15-20bb stacks more aggressively. If you raise fold here then oh well, you are at that 10-12bb stack size that REALLY IS push fold territory. Give yourself a chance to outplay your opponents before entering push/fold land.
Think about this, if you raise JTs right here and the button has QT or KT he probably has to fold. But if it folds to QTo on the button; he now has an easy open. You're seizing the fold equity before the other players can. If they have a hand, then they have a hand oh well. Get in there, mix it up take some risks and play your playable hands.
T
trent32la
Legend
Bronze Level
Interesting spot, I consider myself an expert at 10-20bb play and this spot is a facepalm. If this is JTo I am immediately folding. The players in the blinds are really dependent. When jamming here our opponents can really only call us with AJ+ 99+ here, by minraising we allow players in front to shove over wider, although we have good equity, we're flipping for more than half our stack. imo on 14bb this is a fold as we aren't in a huge rush. After thinking this through here is my play(s) based on stack sizes.
<12bb- open shove
13-17bb- fold
18bb+ - min raise
<12bb- open shove
13-17bb- fold
18bb+ - min raise
T
trent32la
Legend
Bronze Level
Correct, as we are getting correct odds to call the BB/BUs shove without denting our stack too much, when the SB/CO shoves they are doing so with a tighter range aswell, thus decreasing our equity meaning its a fold to a shove by a larger stack.