$6.50 NLHE STT Turbo: Thinking, reg vs reg

[WiZZiM]

$6.50 NL HE STT Turbo: Thinking, reg vs reg

Ok, in this hand im playing against a player who i know quite well, he is a very good regular who knows my game and i know his.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, 6.5 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t1530)
Hero (Button) (t1490)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)

Hero's M: 49.67

Preflop: Hero is Button with A

, A

1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 4 folds, Hero bets t100, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t80

Flop: (t230) 9

, 7

, 8

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t200, UTG+1 calls t200

Turn: (t630) 2

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

River: (t630) 3

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets t260, Hero?

Ok, so i make my standard raise in position, i usually raise 4x at this level, so i make it 100, im fine with 80 too, but i actually wanted to give him bad odds for the types of hands he is calling with there, he, like me will open limp with small pocket pairs, so his range here is really kind of transparent. 22-99 and maybe some random 87s 45s type SC hands. The call preflop kind of suprised me, i didn't really expect him to do that. As most of the time he folds to my cbets.

Ok so the flop hits, and to be honest, im not really happy with it. sure i have aces, but it hits his range quite well 22-10's maybe some suited connector type hands, i decide to make a large bet, since it's a pretty wet flop to define my hand, Once he calls im imediately worried. Looks like we can take out hands like 22-55 and start to define his range too 66-10's and some stuff like 87 etc.

Turn blanks, im not worried about the flush draw. he checks to me, and this is a really easy check back, if i bet here in such a weak spot and i'm raised im done with the hand. So i check back, figuring to get to a cheap showdown, hopefully.

River hits a 3, pretty much another blank, and this time he bets, he bets small 260 into a pot of 630. Now the beauty of this bet is, it looks just like a blocker bet, so at first im thinking, this guy has a hand like 66 10 10 or some random pair/draw that didnt get there. But i know that he knows my range is probably weighted toward high pairs and AK's. I dont think hed expect me to cbet that board so big without a hand. so what do you guys think? is this a blocker bet? meaning i should call/raise. Or is it what it looks like, a pure value bet with the nuts?

Feel free to pick my thinking to bits, that's why im posting it, also i'll be posting more of my own hands to show how thinking changes from bad players to good players. Anyways thought this was an interesting spot so review away.

 

[OzExorcist]

Typing as I think here...

I don't like raising. I figure there's pretty much nothing worse in his range that he can call with and we're rarely folding out any better hands since it's hard for us to have anything other than an overpair or an AK bluff making it an easy call for two pair and sets.

For this to be a profitable call in cEV terms we have to be good what, about 25% of the time? We beat 66 and TT and the one-pair busted straight stuff like T9 / 76 etc... I dunno, I probably call figuring that the pot's big enough to be worth winning, we'll be good maybe enough of the time, I've already committed a chunk of my stack and blinds are low so I've got time to catch up when I'm beat.

Rest of the line works for me, BTW

 

[Rldetheflop]

I think I have to flat here. Raising is really not an option as you are certainly only getting called with a hand that beats you. With a board like that I have a hard time believing that he is check/calling the flop and checking the turn with a set or 2 pair. I think you are dead on with a read of a pair and a straight draw(66,1010,or9/10) as you mentioned. As far as the villain having the nuts, that would be an Ace high flush which he absolutely does not have.

 

[WiZZiM]

I didnt literally mean, "the nuts". As you say, he defo never has a flush here. What i meant was, hands that obv crush me, sets, two pairs etc.

You need to think one level ahead again, put yourself in his shoes, He knows that my raise preflop and my bet on the flop is generally somethins like 10's+ AK+, ok. So whats the real danger in calling this flop, if he has a monster? if i have 10's i have a fair few outs, jacks, im down to like 6 outs, and anything above it, 2 outs. So now that we know that, how does that change your point of view?

 

[c9h13no3]

Is there some reason we didn't bet the turn? Just because you plan to bet/fold doesn't mean you shouldn't bet.

 

[Rldetheflop]

I didnt literally mean, "the nuts". As you say, he defo never has a flush here. What i meant was, hands that obv crush me, sets, two pairs etc.

You need to think one level ahead again, put yourself in his shoes, He knows that my raise preflop and my bet on the flop is generally somethins like 10's+ AK+, ok. So whats the real danger in calling this flop, if he has a monster? if i have 10's i have a fair few outs, jacks, im down to like 6 outs, and anything above it, 2 outs. So now that we know that, how does that change your point of view?

The flop yes I agree he could get away with check/calling but the turn card brings danger if you have AKh so I think a check here is a big mistake with a set or 2 pair.

Also Personally I wouldnt want to be sitting with a set of nines when the turn card is an A, K, J, 10, 5.

 

[WiZZiM]

Is there some reason we didn't bet the turn? Just because you plan to bet/fold doesn't mean you shouldn't bet.

Because i think there are way way more made hands than draws in his range.. basically, i highly doubt he is limping with SC, but it's possible, so i included it into the range.

So betting into that flop, with him on such a strong range would be bad wouldnt it? We make stuff fold or rerasie all in that we beat, so were getting bluffed off our hand somtimes, Id prefer checking back and possibly calling a river bet. Always open to new ideas of how to plays hands, though.

 

[jaded848]

Might as well toss in my 2 cents- I think your line might look like an AK miss. If he knows you cbet alot, he might see your cbet as just that, and the fact that you made it pretty large may make him think you want him out fast. After checking the turn I think you have to call the river b/c you have made your hand look quite weak (he might have a pair like 55 and think he's good).

Also, I understand you're worried about his range on the turn, but shouldn't we be betting to protect ourselves against hands like any T or 6, which are also in his range? If the 4th card to the straight hit on the river we would almost certainly be folding.

 

[WiZZiM]

The thing is, i don't think hes going to just call the turn, hes going to shove his draws if he continues, meaning we have to fold. So we open ourselves up to being bluffed off our hand. If he doesnt decide to continue i know he isn't calling three streets with top pair on this board with me betting, so he either just folds or shoves those hands. And there really isn't many combinations of hands he can have here, He may have a few SC's in his range, but as mentioned, i think his range is kind of transparent in that he is mainly limping with small pairs. I really doubt he is going to call a 5x raise with 109s or something along those lines, i don't want to rule it out completely, but im pretty sure.

Personally id rather wait till the river to see if the draw gets there or not, as he will not pay us off by calling and folding river..

And if he has hands like 55, we get to a cheap showdown in a marginal spot.

 

[Xavier]

It seems strange not to bet on the turn to me on a board like that because J,10,6,5 on the river are all scare cards which I would want to protect against, and its like giving him a free card to beat you.

I personally have no problem with getting it all in on the turn or the flop, but having got to the river as u did I would just flat call the last raise.

 

[WiZZiM]

It seems strange not to bet on the turn to me on a board like that because J,10,6,5 on the river are all scare cards which I would want to protect against, and its like giving him a free card to beat you.

I personally have no problem with getting it all in on the turn or the flop, but having got to the river as u did I would just flat call the last raise.

Are you even reading my post?

Im not playing against some muppet who still watches poker after dark. I'm playing against a thinking regular. I see the merit of betting the turn, if there are more draws in his range, but frankly i feel that there isn't. I'm pretty sure he is not calling a 5x raise preflop with SC's very often, if at all, so his range just has to be 22-1010, possibly he limp/calls with 87s stuff like that, but again, i highly doubt it.

so for me, betting the turn here folds out 66 and below sometimes folds pair a draw hands(though i think that folds flop anyway). and we get raised by pair and draw hands and made hands. IDK, but unless someone can provide me with a reason to be betting the turn, apart from 'protecting my hand' then go for it.

Anyways the result is this. i made the crying call and he flips over a set. I really wanted to fold but i think my hand is good sometimes too, and im getting a good price.

I do really like his bet though, it looked to me like a blocker bet. but i didnt want to raise over obviously.

 

[Rldetheflop]

Personally I think if he slow-played a set that hard with that board that should be noteworthy as a weakness. I mean obviously I know nothing about this villain aside from this hand and you have a lot of experience with him so I really should just trust your read on him however all I am saying is too bad you didnt have AKh. Honestly if that had been your hand would you have played it very differently? other than the river obviously.

I mean you said yourself he has you on a narrow range which means that a few hands he makes an extra 260, a few hands he makes nothing extra(because you are folding the river). and 1 hand he gets stacked.

 

[Xavier]

I actually think he played the hand very badly given he had a set.

He should definitely either check raise on the flop, or lead out on the flop himself, as this gives the chance to get all the chips in straight away, against any overpairs.

Any 5, 6, 10, J puts 4 cards to a straight down and could kill his action against the overpairs, and potentially mean he has been outdrawn.

Maybe you did the right thing checking the turn though if you know very well how he plays though. I'm just going from experience saying to bet the turn.

 

[c9h13no3]

I see the merit of betting the turn, if there are more draws in his range, but frankly i feel that there isn't. I'm pretty sure he is not calling a 5x raise preflop with SC's very often, if at all, so his range just has to be 22-1010, possibly he limp/calls with 87s stuff like that, but again, i highly doubt it.

Easy on the fancy play syndrome. If your opponent is limp/calling, he's likely not very good. I really think you're having some results oriented thinking here (since he showed down a set), and if you get baluga'd on the turn, you have the world's easiest laydown.

Plus, if he was a good player, he'd auto-raise that flop with a set. If you're going to check any street, I'd much rather it be the flop than the turn. You still get the pot controlling ability, but you get a lot closer to showdown, and draws can't get all in with 50% equity anymore. Its known as the BA/WB concept, and there's a post on it in the golden archives. But if you choose to bet the flop, then you most certainly need to bet the turn. To summarize:

If you think your opponent has sc's, suited ace/rags, and other stuff in his limp calling range, I'd fire two or three v-bets, and I'd be v-betting the turn.

If you think your opponent's range is essentially small pairs, and maybe 1 or 2 JTs/QJs type hands, check back the flop, and continue on most turn cards.

 

[WiZZiM]

Now that is a point that makes sense, i like the idea of checking back that flop, and it makes a lot of sense to me that i should be bet/folding the turn after i fire flop. Ok so i check the flop, when he fires i'm just going to play pot control to river? ie. call turn, call river(depending on river card)?

I probably am giving him too much credit. but at low levels, most of them are spazzes, this guy is a long term winning player, so he is one of the better one's, but yeah, i agree that limp/calling there is pretty bad, perhaps my read needs to change, and quickly.

 

[dg1267]

I didn't look at any of the other answers.

I'm leaning towards him holding TT and making a small blocking bet knowing your range is top hands (QQ+, AKs). It looks like he's pretty sure he's beat but still wanting to bluff catch and just trying to keep you from making a strong river bet knowing that you won't re-raise without the nuts here.

Edit: Read the ending... again I'm wrong. LOL

Good spot though.

 

[jaded848]

So let me make sure I grasp this- if we put our opponent on small pairs and maybe a drawing hand, we check flop and check/call turn and river assuming no major scare cards fall and the bets aren't too big?

Can we fire if a blank hits on the turn and he checks it? I find it hard to believe a set would be checking twice. Would definitely put us in a rough spot though if a scare card hit on the river and he bet out....