$50 NLHE STT Turbo: Trouble with flopped set of Kings....

[KaptainJim]

$50 NL HE STT Turbo: Trouble with flopped set of Kings....

First hand on a $50+5, 6 player tournament.
Villain is a multitabler (about 12 tables or so), I multitable 6.


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iPoker Game -1700894360 / Tournament
Table "TURBO" Canterbury - 24-Oct-2009 19:26:04
Blinds : 10/20
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6 players
[SB] Player4 (1500)
[BB] Hero (1500)
Villain (1500)
Player1 (1500)
Player2 (1500)
[But] Player3 (1500)

Hero K♣ A♣ Initial Pot: 30

Villain raises to 80
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Hero calls 60
### FLOP ### Q♦ K♥ K♦ Pot: 170
Hero bets 85
Villain calls 85
### TURN ### 8♦ Pot: 340
Hero bets 170
Villain calls 170
### RIVER ### 9♣ Pot: 680
Hero bets 280
Villain raises to 1165
Hero ?

 

[c9h13no3]

1) You don't have a set, you have trips. Sets >>> Trips
2) Bet more everywhere. A guideline is that if you can't figure out what to bet in a tourney, bet between half and two thirds pot.
3) Fold the river. Villain almost always has a flush or JT.

 

[dj11]

PF reraise is called for.....mistake #1

On the flop you saw the flush draw and gave him superior odds to call....mistake #2................bet much larger, deny him the odds to call.

On the turn, with the flush possible Villain will call almost any bet with a big diamond.....At this point you might have bet bigger representing you had the big diamond and probable flush, your bet looks like a face saving attempt at a steal, easy to see for anyone playing 6 max $50 sng's (remember the talent pool here is pretty good)... 1/2 pot bet or a bit bigger would have looked like a value bet and made villain drop all but a made flush with a big diamond. .........mistake #3

River... You are so likely to be toast here that we hope you mucked.

My guess is you called and lost.

 

[KaptainJim]

1) You don't have a set, you have trips. Sets >>> Trips
2) Bet more everywhere. A guideline is that if you can't figure out what to bet in a tourney, bet between half and two thirds pot.
3) Fold the river. Villain almost always has a flush or JT.

1) My mistake, I often confuse those two

2) I DID bet half the pot on the flop and turn. River bet was a BLOCK bet .

3) JT I think is not too likely. This guy plays too many tables to get involved with marginal hands + I have never seen him show a hand like that.

PF reraise is called for.....mistake #1

On the flop you saw the flush draw and gave him superior odds to call....mistake #2................bet much larger, deny him the odds to call.

On the turn, with the flush possible Villain will call almost any bet with a big diamond.....At this point you might have bet bigger representing you had the big diamond and probable flush, your bet looks like a face saving attempt at a steal, easy to see for anyone playing 6 max $50 sng's (remember the talent pool here is pretty good)... 1/2 pot bet or a bit bigger would have looked like a value bet and made villain drop all but a made flush with a big diamond. .........mistake #3

River... You are so likely to be toast here that we hope you mucked.

My guess is you called and lost.

First of all, I think that this particular player plays a very simple, uncomplicated game, due to his 12 to 15 tables in front of him. I have played so many games against him that I think I have a good read on him.

The reason I did not raise preflop is because I have seen the villain reraising allin, not wanting to make difficult decisions postflop, even with hands like AQ, JJ, TT and 99. If I was going to raise, I would shove first, as I wasnt going to call his push. I prefered to play postflop.

When I did bet the flop, I was expecting a reraise from the villain with his AA, his AQ, or his 99-JJ.

Turn: I did make a 1/2 pot bet (pot=340 , my bet=170). On this round I was really suspicious on my opponents hand. If he had a medium pair, a larger bet would have made him to fold for sure. If he did called with a flush draw on the flop, now he has a made hand so I didnt want to commit myself in the pot.


River:
What hands you may think that will come this far, and try to steal after 3 bets ?
AA, JJ, TT ? Nope. Just a call here.
AQ? same
AJ or AT? Maybe, but not likely to flat-call 2 bets, unless he has the Ad (a bold move if so)

I cannot imagine this guy playing any other hands.

Note: Calling a 1/2 pot bets with a flush draw against trips are NOT superior odds. You draw for 8 and not nine cards, plus you will get stacked if opponents makes a full house.
Same applies with the straight draw here, as an A would have get him stacked if he did called with a JT.

 

[PattyR]

i actually had this EXACT hand in a cash table...only the flop was Q A A and i had AK... turn was 9 and river was an 7....he shoved on the river and i called...he turned over A 7 for the boat...damm lol...i know this is completely irrelevant...just anythings possible

 

[BEERM4N]

River:
What hands you may think that will come this far, and try to steal after 3 bets ?
AA, JJ, TT ? Nope. Just a call here.
AQ? same
AJ or AT? Maybe, but not likely to flat-call 2 bets, unless he has the Ad (a bold move if so)

AK or KJ???

 

[Jillychemung]

The reason I did not raise preflop is because I have seen the villain reraising allin, not wanting to make difficult decisions postflop, even with hands like AQ, JJ, TT and 99. If I was going to raise, I would shove first, as I wasnt going to call his push. I prefered to play postflop.

This makes no sense to me.

Is this multi-tabling villain so bad as to overshove (1420) your preflop 3-bet to win a pot of ~375 with a range as thin as 99-AA,AQ+??? Do players at this level 3-bet so much worse of a range here and call overshoves to make this play profitable? And why would you ever overshove 1480 to win a pot of 110 unless you were dead certain a villain was going to call with a range that you crush?

 

[Zybomb]

Reraise to 300ish preflop with the intent of calling a shove, it's a 6 max turbo SNG and you have AKs, your hand is a monster

On the flop do not donk into the raiser. Check Raise to build a pot so that you can play for stacks sooner. The problem with the small pot pre is that its 170 on the flop so if you do c/r he'll bet in the 110 range, you can pop to 350ish but you'll still have 1070 left into a 900 pot going to the turn. Then if it diamonds or 9s both draws complete and you are in a weird spot with top trips. Had you reraised pre we're looking at a 600ish chip pot (if you dont take it down pre which is fine) with 1200 so we can bet 450 into a 600 and leave ourselves with 750 into a 1500 if called, so we don't have a tough decision on the turn. We also define his hand a lot better by 3 betting

As played pre c/r flop. As played on flop c/c turn. As played on turn c/c river. As played on river fold

 

[rolling chances]

particularly in turbos i like to play the top hands aggressively particularly in the early stages of a tournement and not slow play big pairs

the mood everyone is in is to double up early and invariably they will take risks.

it is ok to move in even with AA KK QQ if your on a table with aggressive players that have shown they have gamble in the early stages.

 

[trashcan]

Bet more on every street, never folding this in Ipoker

 

[KaptainJim]

Reraise to 300ish preflop with the intent of calling a shove, it's a 6 max turbo SNG and you have AKs, your hand is a monster

On the flop do not donk into the raiser. Check Raise to build a pot so that you can play for stacks sooner. The problem with the small pot pre is that its 170 on the flop so if you do c/r he'll bet in the 110 range, you can pop to 350ish but you'll still have 1070 left into a 900 pot going to the turn. Then if it diamonds or 9s both draws complete and you are in a weird spot with top trips. Had you reraised pre we're looking at a 600ish chip pot (if you dont take it down pre which is fine) with 1200 so we can bet 450 into a 600 and leave ourselves with 750 into a 1500 if called, so we don't have a tough decision on the turn. We also define his hand a lot better by 3 betting

As played pre c/r flop. As played on flop c/c turn. As played on turn c/c river. As played on river fold

Well preflop I dont really like to play a 50-50 hand for all my chips so early. Cause if this guy shoved to my reraise , he would probably had AK, AA, QQ, JJ, TT. So I wasnt really happy to call his allin with my hand.
Moreover, I think he is tight enough to lay down a AQ, AJ or a KQ, after a raise, so I hadnt achieved anything by making fold a worst kicker.

You see, a mere call by the villain is very rare preflop, because he is leaving him tough postflop decisions for a big pot, something a 15-tables player tries to avoid. Thats why I didnt raised.

On the flop, propably you are right. A check-raise would be better, though I dont think you would call me with any hand I was beating at that moment, maybe just AA or AQ, or the flush draw.

On the turn though, if I had checked, he may had made a pot-sized bet with the above hands in the sight of the flush draw and the probable flop bluff. What would I do then? Fold to a worst hand or pay his flush? I think a check here would leave me totally in the dark.

On the river, if I it isnt obvious yet, I did fold my hand after making a block bet.

 

[Sysvr4]

On the river, if I it isnt obvious yet, I did fold my hand after making a block bet.

What hands are you trying to block? I can't think of a single hand in his range for which this strategy makes sense.

The only worse card in the deck for your hand than this river is the 9d. Personally, I think I like a check/call line better than a bet/fold. Gives him a chance to bluff (though I can't imagine a hand that he's missed with here) and usually gets us to showdown a lot cheaper.

I agree with the comments above about PF and your flop and turn bets...

 

[KaptainJim]

What hands are you trying to block? I can't think of a single hand in his range for which this strategy makes sense.

The only worse card in the deck for your hand than this river is the 9d. Personally, I think I like a check/call line better than a bet/fold. Gives him a chance to bluff (though I can't imagine a hand that he's missed with here) and usually gets us to showdown a lot cheaper.

I agree with the comments above about PF and your flop and turn bets...

I disagree that the block bet was uneccesary. A possible bluff here would be about 550, leaving him with an effective stack to play if failed. With my block bet, bluffing requires him to play for all his chips. Also, a straight here may just call instead of losing an allin to a flush or a full house.

 

[baudib1]

IMO your betting on all streets is so weak you leave yourself open to getting bluffed off by a worse or same hand.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

PF reraise is called for.....mistake #1

Reraise to 300ish preflop with the intent of calling a shove, it's a 6 max turbo SNG and you have AKs, your hand is a monster

Am I the only one who thinks in early SNG play calling here OOP and basically playing fit or fold postflop is fine? Say we repop to 300, we're committed to c-bet 350-450 most of the time and that's almost half our stack in the middle OOP with what 2/3rds of the time will be air all during the stage of the SNG where chip conservation is of paramount importance. Maybe I'm just a nit, but w/e. Obviously in an MTT or ring we absolutely have to repop pre as standard, but here it seems a little uncalled for.

That said we need to bet more on flop and turn because we're miles ahead of villain's range and the board is wtfdrawy. As played obviously fold river - we only beat weaker Kx hands and air and villain pretty much never has either, and every possible draw has got there.

 

[KaptainJim]

I understand that my bets were very weak, allowing my opponent to draw when I was ahead with my trip Kings.
It's only because flopping a monster is so exciting and you want to get paid as much as you can, ignoring that other players may drawing to a better hand.
I also have a feeling that the villain was beating me from the start, with a pair of QQ, or that the turn gave him the full boat with a pair of 88.
Anyway, thank you all for your answers

 

[chipshuffler]

Always come over the top of him preflop. Your really opening yourself up to some bad beats if your slow playing AK preflop. Other than that you played it pretty well, not much else you coulda done.

On the river, you must certainly fold. In that situation, theres no way he is going to shoving with any two cards other than a flush or a J10 straight. Fold for sure.

Remember to raise with your AK!

 

[Zybomb]

Am I the only one who thinks in early SNG play calling here OOP and basically playing fit or fold postflop is fine? Say we repop to 300, we're committed to c-bet 350-450 most of the time and that's almost half our stack in the middle OOP with what 2/3rds of the time will be air all during the stage of the SNG where chip conservation is of paramount importance. Maybe I'm just a nit, but w/e. Obviously in an MTT or ring we absolutely have to repop pre as standard, but here it seems a little uncalled for.

This is all true, but you aren't accounting for a few important things

1) Players opens in a 6 max turbo SNG are wide, a 3 bet is going to take the pot down preflop a good percentage of the time

2) The times we don't we will hit TPTK about 1 in every 3 and can work on extracting additional chips/stacking him when he holds an inferior hand that hits

3) The 2 times we miss yes, our c bet would put 40% of our stack in the middle, but don't forget HE is going to miss 2 out of 3 times also. This bet will win the pot a lot as well.

I agree with SNG playing essentially weak-tight in the early blind stages as an optimal strategy but in short handed turbos, I think playing too passive can cost us as we won't have as many opportunities as blinds rise faster and come around quicker

 

[c9h13no3]

Am I the only one who thinks in early SNG play calling here OOP and basically playing fit or fold postflop is fine?

Just for the record, I'm in the "calling preflop is fine" camp.

 

[Sysvr4]

Just for the record, I'm in the "calling preflop is fine" camp.

Curious, why?

Your answer should include the words "reverse implied odds" in order to be valid.