$.50 NLHE STT: Should the second hand be an auto fold? -

[skrsh76]

Except the BB everyone was playing TAG.

Big Stack was playing only solid hands but he was hitting his cards and folding when he didn't. SB was effectively not there.. don't know if he registered and didn't play at all.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (5 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Hero (MP) (t695)
Button (t9,615)
SB (t240)
BB (t1,455)
UTG (t1,495)

Hero's M: 2.32

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

, 4

UTG raises to t1,495 (All-In), Hero calls t695 (All-In), 3 folds

Flop: (t1,690) 7

, 3

, A

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t1,690) 9

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1,690) 2

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t1,690

Results below:

Spoiler

UTG had K

, 10

(high card, Ace).
Hero had A

, 4

(one pair, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won t1,690

Next Hand..

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (5 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Hero (UTG) (t1,690)
MP (t9,615)
Button (t140)
SB (t1,255)
BB (t800)

Hero's M: 5.63

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

, Q

Hero raises to t1,690 (All-In), MP calls t1,690, 3 folds

Flop: (t3,680) 2

, 3

, A

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t3,680) 4

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3,680) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t3,680

Results below:

Spoiler

Hero had A

, Q

(one pair, Aces).
MP had K

, A

(one pair, Aces).
Outcome: MP won t3,680

 

[horizon12]

in both hand need shove, in 1st hand this easy call 3bb ( nash chart) , in second too easy shove 8bb ( raise we not can because this most of our stack and we oop )

 

[hffjd2000]

For me, both cases all-in.
1. M<5, committed to go all-in with an Ace of course.
2. In a 5 handed table, AQ is a good hand. I want to take the pot right there.

 

[el_magiciann]

I also think that both hands are well played shoving pre flop is the right decision here.

 

[konatus]

You have to think about the range of hands of the villain and the risk and reward.

You have a stack of 695 and the pot is 995. So your pot odds is 695 / 1690 = 0,4112 = 41,12%

The villain does a push from HJ (or UTG) and is not scared by a call from the BB big stack.

In this spot I think the villain has the following range of hands:

66+,ATs+,KTs+,AJo+,KQo

So the range of hands to do break even call here is 44+,A9s+,KQs,AJo+

But if you want to do call with a equity better than 41,12% you need to do call with 77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+

But lets you the ICMIZER and evaluate the Fold EV and the Call EV

if you fold, the villain earn more 300 chips, the SB and BB lose 100 and 200 respectively and your EV from a prize pool of $ 1,96 is: $ 0.22

if you call with A4s against the villain push range: 66+,ATs+,KTs+,AJo+,KQo

your EV is: EV = (Probability of win) * (Equity atfer win) + (Probability of lose) * (Equity after lose)

EV = (0,3753) * ($ 0,44) + (0,6247) * ($ 0)

EV = $ 0,1651

If we compare the EV of fold and the EV of call we see that EV Fold > EV Call

$ 0,22 > $ 0,16

So I prefer fold A4s against the villain push hand 66+,ATs+,KTs+,AJo+,KQo

If he has range weakest than that we need to calculate the EV Call again and compate to the EV Fold.

Maybe we need to calculate the equity minimum though EQmin = EV fold / ( EV fold + EV call )

I don't know. I need remember this. Sry!

Now I will see the the hand that the villain had.

 

[skrsh76]

I think the first hand is pretty clear. The second one is where I am not sure as I am second in position and I am raising into the Chip lead with 2 short (1 ultra short). Is that work the risk? I will wait they probably fall by the wayside and I will have a bit more fold equity? Is this a wrong logic?

 

[konatus]

I have seen the hand and he had a range of hands a bit worst. I think he had

66+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,ATo+,KTo+

So the hands: 44+,A7s+,A5s-A4s,KJs+,ATo+,KQo has better equity than 41,12%

And A4s vs 66+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,ATo+,KTo+

is 41,32% vs 58,68% in the Heads Up

So the EV call is: EV = (0,4132) * ($ 0,44) + (0,5868) * ( $ 0)

EV = $ 0,1818

And the EV Fold is still better than EV Call with a bit difference

In this case we need to evaluate the Risk of Ruin too.

So I prefer to push instead of calling with A4s in this situation. But we need of chips to survive in the tournament and maybe we will not have a better spot than that.

So a call is not wrong.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Both are fine.

1st hand: call or fold is fine. If it folds to you, you DEFINITELY push. calling all in with A4s and a tiny stack is optional but OK.

2nd hand: easy shove all day long. it's just bad luck he woke up with 1 of 3 hands that dominates you. In fact, people may call you light because they saw you go all in with A4 a minute ago.

 

[Arjonius]

The second hand is an easy shove. Against a tight table, you'll win the blinds a high % of the time. When you get called, AQ isn't in awful shape vs. even a fairly tight calling range. Combine these and pushing is likely to be solidly +EV.

 

[Loonbat]

I find the 2nd hand shove to be easier to make than the 1st hand call, honestly. Regardless, my chips are going in for both cases.

 

[WiZZiM]

how did you get to 600 chips to begin with? if you have been folding a lot and your stack has dwindled to that, then you are making many more mistakes leading up to that a4s hand.

so yeah, try not to get to 3 bb unless you get coolered or lose a flip or something.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I find the 2nd hand shove to be easier to make than the 1st hand call, honestly. Regardless, my chips are going in for both cases.

I concur ^

 

[byrnsiey330]

I think the first hand is pretty clear. The second one is where I am not sure as I am second in position and I am raising into the Chip lead with 2 short (1 ultra short). Is that work the risk? I will wait they probably fall by the wayside and I will have a bit more fold equity? Is this a wrong logic?

AQ isn't a huge underdog against any hand except QQ, KK, AK, and AA. By shoving pre, you are getting rid of your positional disadvantage while also giving yourself a chance to win the hand and the blinds right there.

 

[MAX101]

I concur both hands are pretty much auto shoves, but for me my final decision and odds calculator is how much beer is left in my bottle, if it's mostly full I fold and wait to shove only with pocket pairs, but if it's mostly empty it's auto shove mode for me

 

[the lab man]

I find the 2nd hand shove to be easier to make than the 1st hand call, honestly. Regardless, my chips are going in for both cases.

All Chips Going in easy Decision

how did you get to 600 chips to begin with? if you have been folding a lot and your stack has dwindled to that, then you are making many more mistakes leading up to that a4s hand.

so yeah, try not to get to 3 bb unless you get coolered or lose a flip or something.

Agree ^^^^^^^^^^

Start with small raise .After next flop raise your bit ..

Do not ever do this at this point^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[RamdeeBen]

Seems I disagree with all. I'm assuming these are 9 handed games given the stack size of the big stack?

With no antes in place, I'm folding first hand unless he's really spewy.

Second hand seems like a clear fold to me. We have 2 short stacks, the big stack behind to act no antes in play and we are second in chips. If big stack calls or ISO shoves us, this is terrible ICM wise for us. If not then BTN who's really, really short is likely going all-in. He's very likely to go out this hand and if he shoves, SB is likely to ISO shove or let BB take it heads up. Whichever the case may be, we will likely be on the bubble the very next hand and we won't be the shortest stack meaning we should have a really really tight range when there is no antes in play and ICM needs to be considered here given stack sizes. We are basically on the bubble here as the BTN is so short and because the second shortest stack has half our stack our range should be like QQ+/AKs because we have the big stack to get through. The only time I shove is if we and big stack swap positions and he folds UTG.

I'm actually more likely to go with the A4 hand as opposed to the AQ if I had to choose a hand but I think both are folds.

 

[skrsh76]

Thanks all for the feedback...

First hand I called the shove as the villain was particularly aggressive considering everyone else playing tight...

 

[WiZZiM]

with the reads you provided (please post these in the op next time) the A4s is pretty close i think. it really depends on how loose he actually is, we also have to worry about villians behind us. i think i'd fold this, but it's really close. i don't think calling or folding is a mistake here.

now, the interesting AQ hand, if we had around 10-12bb's here, we could min-rasie the AQ, fold to big stack shoves, and call any of the other shorties. if we min-raise our stack here and it backfires, we're not in a clear second place anymore, and we lose that bit of padding we have against the other stacks in play. i think i'd go with a similar range to rams, but i'd open it up with the pairs to 1010+ and AK+

essentially we're playing here to min-cash or get second, big stack has all but secured first, we really just need to make sure we cash and shoving this isn't the way to go about it. Think about this op, does stealing those 300 chips change our stack position into a postiion that we're really happy with?

the only other thing to be mentioned here that should be a real eye opener is that we really don't have the stack setup to shove wide anymore. we're always going to be shoving through the chip leader. in situations like that, we have to shove a tight range, but what we can do to compensate is call with a looser range vs the other short stacks. because of the stack setup, and because we're going to have to play a tighter range, our stack is likely going to dwindle down. if the other stacks in play are giving you walks thats great, but if they are attacking you, then you definitely need to call them wider and even accept a "-ev" situation in terms of ICM, and go with common sense instead.

Think about it, "EV" isn't giving us money right now in this tournament, it promises us money in the future if we keep making this same play. but this situation doesn't come up very often in a sng(i'd estimate i've seen similar spots around 10 times in around 10k games), so why are we thinking long term about spots like this? what we want to do is get value now and cash, if that means we call someone wide and we have 30-40% equity in the hand, so be it. if we follow ICM in this stack setup, we will be blinded down to nothing really fast, it basically becomes a viscious cycle where we have to call and shove tighter and tighter as our stack becomes shorter. lets use common sense instead here.

having said all that, this is a .50 cent game, it's unlikely that any of those stacks will know to shove really wide on us, more than likely they will provide spots where we can shove on their limps, or just get free walks. but as you progress through the ranks in sng's you will no longer get free walks, and you will have to think about the situation and stack setup that you are in.

hope this helps.

 

[WiZZiM]

sorry, really need to read the op more. "players are tight"

this becomes a clear min-raise with AQ i'm still not opening up my range much, i'd be doing this min-raise with AK/AQ, and shoving 10's-QQ and min-raising to induce with KK/AA. the above info is still solid we're still playing for a min-cash or second here, and we still have to have a tight range when we have a big stack on our left. but if he's not going to flat us much, then min-raising in spots like this is great because we're not going to go bust vs the big stack, and we get to attack the other shorter stacks.

 

[skrsh76]

Thanks Wizzim. Very informative. Something to really think about.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Yes, good points both ramdeebam and wizzim, I was oversimplifying my analysis to focus on hand strength and stack size while failing to consider table position.

Still, I think folding AQ 5 handed is too tight, even with monster stack on our left because the blinds will eat up our 2nd place chips too quickly. But I really like the suggestion of min raising with the intention of calling any short stack all in and folding to a big stack all in.

I'll admit I'm a little uncomfortable with that tactic because of the risk of 1 of the players flatting us and a Cbet will pot commit us. I have very little experience playing flops with such a short stack, as I usually shove pre when I get short. Whenever I do play a flop short stacked it is with the intention of shoving on any flop if I'm OOP (stop n go) and jamming any flop if they check to me in position (1-2 shove). Devoid of any flop details or player reads, would you recommend that as a baseline strategy for those times we are forced to play a pot with a short stack?

 

[WiZZiM]

ya, it definitely doesn't "feel" right to fold such a strong hand here right? but it's about making sure we cash or CLASH with stacks of similar size to us. so if we fold the AQ here, it should be with the intention of calling wider against the other shortstacks if they shove into us. so we might be "tight" here, but we're going to be "loose" later to compensate.

and ya, it is weird playing with such a low SPR, i really only got used to it playing hyper turbos, where having 3bb can sometimes mean you have a great stack size, lol. yeah in a .50 cent game we will be flatted sometimes but look at the stack sizes who will be flatting us, one has 800 and the other has 1200. no matter what, we're committed against both of them here, that is our plan. so if they call, and shove the flop, we're going with it. if they call, and check, then we can either shove, or c-bet/call or c-bet/shove turn, whatever really, but we make our plan preflop and we just have to go through with it postflop, there's no thinking required here thankfully . the great thing is that they cannot knock us out, we're left with, at worst 435 chips, which gives us a glimmer of hope still of cashing, not much, but still a chance.