$5 rebuy, NLHE, Pstars. AJ late position. All shorter stacks on blinds. What size bet

Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Hi guys.

Be interested to know your thoughts on this one.

Mainly
  1. Was the raise amount right
  2. Should I have called.
At this stage I had raised and won without showing about 2 times in a row previous to this hand.

PokerStars Game #9807034745: Tournament #49446941, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/05/08 - 07:18:31 (ET) Table '49446941 26' 9-max Seat #3 is the button Seat 1: shg18 (16232 in chips) Seat 2: ronaldadio (27015 in chips) Seat 3: rowseanaitor (4960 in chips) Seat 4: Sharkky1 (6465 in chips) Seat 5: GoaMick (6115 in chips) Seat 6: Waldo38 (17455 in chips) Seat 7: MrLynX (15575 in chips) Seat 9: FellKnight (39268 in chips)
shg18: posts the ante 25
ronaldadio: posts the ante 25
rowseanaitor: posts the ante 25
Sharkky1: posts the ante 25
GoaMick: posts the ante 25
Waldo38: posts the ante 25
MrLynX: posts the ante 25
FellKnight: posts the ante 25
Sharkky1: posts small blind 200
GoaMick: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ronaldadio [Ad Jd]
Waldo38: folds
MrLynX: folds
FellKnight: folds
shg18: folds
ronaldadio: raises 1200 to 1600
rowseanaitor: folds
Sharkky1: folds
GoaMick: raises 4490 to 6090 and is all-in
ronaldadio: Next move???
 
tenbob

tenbob

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1) The raise is fine.
2) Easy fold, what are you possibly beating ? Your either racing or totally dominated, I suspect your dominated.
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

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U lick ure wounds and fold

Easy fold here u got not v good pot odds considering u prob beat right now. Best u r looking for is a race but with ure chip stack u can find so many better places to get ure money in. Could be a resteal but odds of tht r slim i would fold curse my luck and move on to the next hand. You have plenty of chips to be going on with:D
 
Debi

Debi

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You don't mention that you have any reads on him but I don't see him putting all of his chips in at this point in the tournament without a made hand. My poker lessons would have made me make a similar raise - but when he put all of his chips in I am out of there. Even with a middle pair it is a race, so I would fold and wait.

No comments from you Tenbob lol.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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OK, so I made a mistake!!!

I called, he turned AA :(

I knew it was a stupid move when I called.

I accept what u all have said, ty guys.

I must admit, I find it a struggle to put down a hand once I have decided to bet. Just lost a lot of my stack again - top pair, J, with poor kicker. I raised after the flop and another guy pushed all in. I called and he showed KK.

I am always convinced ppl are bluffing when they reraise me :(
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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hehe they not all me ronald:p :D

I`m back in it again!!!

I`m playing like u Stef - pushing and making them make the decision!!!

It works most of the time but wow, does your chip stack go up and down on a regular basis :eek:
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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AM WATCHING YA GL oops caps soz
U watching the tourny now Stef?

I`m just back to hanging on by the old finger nails!!!

Trying to make the cash. Make matters worse, one of the guys is running so hot it`s untrue!!! He has just called an all in from a guy with 1/2 his stack. He had 33 the other guy had KK.

He caught his 3 !!! What can u do ???
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Whaat? All this advice is so wrong it's scary. You have to call. You're a big stack and your raise came in the CO, i.e. it shouldn't get any respect at all. If he wakes up with AA in the BB, so be it. You're getting like 2:1 on your money.

Guys,

a) Figure out what hands you should be shoving in the BB here with an M of like 7.5.
b) Find our equity against those hands
c) Realize getting nearly 2:1 it's a really standard call.

Not to mention folding for that little more really hurts our future blind-stealing because our raises will get less respect.
 
J

joeeagles

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree with the call here too given the conditions above, it's actually pretty standard.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Its good to know it was not a bad move.

All I was thinking was that my initial raise of 4 times the bb was too big. Because of all the points made I think a raise of 3 times would have left the option of folding.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Well we're only getting 1.8:1 (if I counted right) PF, but it's still pretty favourable. I think this depends on the player and what his reraising range is.

vs TAG:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.692% 69.06% 01.63% 46121322 1086600.00 { QQ+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 29.308% 27.68% 01.63% 18485334 1086600.00 { AdJd }

(2.4:1 dog, not nearly enough pot odds to call)

vs semi LAG:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 63.975% 56.53% 07.44% 60985035 8028561.00 { 99+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 36.025% 28.58% 07.44% 30832995 8028561.00 { AdJd }

(here we're <1.8:1 dog, tight but a 'correct' call here)

vs a LAG:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.548% 46.87% 04.68% 97106898 9694274.00 { 66+, A9s+, KQs, A9o+, KQo }
Hand 1: 48.452% 43.77% 04.68% 90693338 9694274.00 { AdJd }

(we're about even money. easy easy call considering pot odds)

Ranges are obv arguable. I just whipped em up in a couple minutes, but I think they're close.

So it depends on the player...
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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To ansa the question Chuck, most of the guys were starting to open up.

We were all in the money, the blinds were increasing, the guy had pushed all in recently.

As I said earlier, I think if I did make a mistake it was raising 4 times rather than 3. I think that is what pushed me over the edge, IMO.
 
tenbob

tenbob

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I had a nice think about this tread last night. This is a more complex situation than I first gave it credit for. This has been one of my big leaks, its all about sizing your P/F raise. Slansky tells us not to raise an amount that leaves us unsure how to react to a reraise. Which has just happened. Looking a it, its either a fold or a push pre-flop.

Looking at villans re-push range, he can re-push with FOLD EQUITY abliet a small bit, with a wide range, most pairs well go with chucks 77+, any medium-large ace or any two paint. If we however go allin ourselves his calling range is substantially smaller. The 77-99 hands now cant push us off 10's for example. Looking back at it without grinding the maths I think that the best course is to push all in yourself.

As played weve been left with a tough decision, ok he had AA, dosnt matter for the point im trying to get across. We simply cannot call his reraise with AJ, we may be getting the pot odds against a poor player but thats really taking cash game strategy into a tournament situation. Folding gives us a big advantage that we would otherwise lose if we call and win. We lose a vast amount of stealing possibilities as well, our stack is still big enought to repetitiely steal now, losing this pot substantially decreases our chance to steal the blinds with our much smaller stack. I still think P/F we should have pushed, as played i still fold. Very marginal though.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Your original raise sizing was wrong because you had no clue what to do when shoved on here. If you raise 3BBs initially then you can easily fold to a shove behind you - raising 4BBs here leaves you with a very marginal decision.

TB, shoving preflop for a 15BB effective stack with AJ seems a little excessive to me - I much prefer the 3bb raise-fold line. Although if we are going to make a 4BB raise which is dangerously close to committing us given effective stacks, then I agree we're better off shoving and gaining a little fold equity.

Effective tournament bigstack strategy revolves around raising and reraising and putting other people in difficult situations. It does not revolve around putting yourself in difficult situations and calling small stack shoves getting less than 2:1 with AJ.
 
J

joeeagles

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Hmmm, I'm not sure about this TB. I'm giving a closer look at this now too. I'm not going to make any considerations on whether there is fold equity or not, you established that already.

Ronaldo is in the CO. The 3 players left to act after him have small stacks, once the antes and blinds are paid the biggest stack left is 6200, Ronaldo has 27k, and there is 800 in the pot. It's folded to him with AJs, and as you say forget about the BB waking up with AA, it's irrelevant for our considerations on the proper way to play this, because AA is not the only hand he would shove with.

I disagree but respect your decision on thinking that, as played, you should fold this; you did, after all, add that it's very marginal.

Here's my view of this.

When this hand is folded to me and I'm looking at the stacks of the remaining players ( I can't be absolutely sure but it appears to me all 3 of them are well below avg) while I'm sitting on AJs, my thought won't be to push PF but to, instead, raise just like Ronaldo did, hoping that 1 of the desperate players left will shove.

Since this pot is uncontested so far, and being in the CO (steal position) sitting on a higher than avg stack, and considering the low M of the remaining players which will widen their range significantly, isn't this an ideal situation? Am I wrong to think the BB would shove here with a huge range of hands that we will be ahead of? Won't the BB think that we are trying to just take advantage of position and stack and put us on something less strong? And, ultimately, won't this affect our image in the sense that we will need to tighten up on our steal attempts?

I understand that these questions mean nothing to you because you're viewing this as a PF fold or all-in hand, hence you wouldn't raise and be in that situation, and as I already said I respect that decision, but then again that's the whole point. I'm aware that AJs is not exactly a powerhouse but its ahead of most of the 3 players range, also considering we're in the CO.

What hand should we wait for then to just simply raise and call a shortstack shove?
 
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