$5 NLHE MTT: Call or fold JJ?

[masadad]

$5 NLHE MTT: Call or fold JJ? I shoved though

No Limit Holdem Tournament
partypoker 8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

Stacks:
UTG Hero (10,580) 18bb
UTG+1 (54,126) 90bb
MP1 (7,024) 12bb
MP2 (3,155) 5bb
CO (3,589) 6bb
BTN (25,264) 42bb
SB (5,931) 10bb
BB (22,473) 37bb Blinds: 300/600 Ante 60

Pre-Flop: (2,280, 8 players) Hero is UTG J:heart: J:spade:
Hero raises to 1,200, 4 folds, BTN calls 1,200, 1 fold, BB calls 600

Flop: 10:diamond: 2:spade: 3:spade: (5,280, 3 players)
BB bets 1,900, Hero calls 1,900, BTN raises to 3,993, BB folds, Hero goes all-in 7,420, BTN calls 5,327

Turn: 8:diamond: (25,820, 2), 1 all-in

River: 5:club: (25,820, 2), 1 all-in

Final Pot: 25,820
BTN shows
??
Hero shows
J:heart: J:spade:

 

[WiZZiM]

Raise to commit on the flop or just straight shove on the flop once the BB leads into you. Pretty certain he's hit the board leading into two players like that... And no, there's no way we're getting away from this hand if someone manages to outflop us here....

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I'm raising 3x preflop with this hand considering antes and shortstacks given no reads here. I'm totally willing to get my chips in the middle on that flop. Min raising invites the button and both blinds to see the hand for cheap pricing them in.

As played you've created a tougher spot than needed here but I'm still jamming over the bb's flop open.

 

[hffjd2000]

I think your raise invited many to ride along.

On the flop, the action gets nasty and we dont know where we stand now.

 

[teepack]

You made it too easy for people to play along with you. I would have done a bigger raise pre-flop - at least 3x BB but probably 4.

 

[WiZZiM]

dont think there is anything wrong with a min-raise here since there are tons of shorter stacks in play, i'd make it slightly larger like 2.5 but it's not a big deal either way.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

dont think there is anything wrong with a min-raise here since there are tons of shorter stacks in play, i'd make it slightly larger like 2.5 but it's not a big deal either way.

I'd disagree, a min raise gives pot odds to the blinds to call and a player on the button with a 40+bb stack could call with fishy hands to hit or potentially outplay post flop. Raise 3x to protect your hand and get more value if a fishy button decides to flat with that plan in mind.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I'd disagree, a min raise gives pot odds to the blinds to call and a player on the button with a 40+bb stack could call with fishy hands to hit or potentially outplay post flop. Raise 3x to protect your hand and get more value if a fishy button decides to flat with that plan in mind.

It's not all about how big his (40bb) stack is, it's effective stack sizes.

Do you think BTN has implied odds to call a player of that stack size who is raising from UTG?

 

[WiZZiM]

I'd disagree, a min raise gives pot odds to the blinds to call and a player on the button with a 40+bb stack could call with fishy hands to hit or potentially outplay post flop. Raise 3x to protect your hand and get more value if a fishy button decides to flat with that plan in mind.

yes, that's exactly what we want when we have a value hand lol and the "more value" point is null and void, since we only have 18 bb to start with getting MORE value is kinda impossible since it's so easy to get stacks in even if we limp preflop. Quite happy to open the debate with min-raising over 3xing if you like, but you're gonna lose that one

basically, it doesn't matter, 2x 3x 4x whatever, just raise it.

 

[masadad]

well i am still learning but... i personally don't like raising too much preflop. from my experience you lose more in the long run that way since you don't hit the flop most of the time. that way it's also hard to walk out of a pot in case of not-so-favorable flop. instead i like min raising it and letting the opponent put me in a wide range. that way i can come back strongly when i do hit a set on flop. i don't always follow what people would normally do in a given situation. instead i try playing it rather different to have the opponent confused. but maybe this is all a rookie mistake i am doing or i don't know but i'll have to try out different ways and see what works best.

here's what BTN showed

Final Pot: 25,820
BTN shows
A:spade: 10:spade:
Hero shows
J:heart: J:spade:
Hero wins 24,920 (net +14,340)
BTN lost 10,580
BB lost 3,160

i ended up finishing 2nd place in that tournament

 

[vinylspiros]

well played in my opinion. Villain always has AT in this spot and Tx if he sucks. Flush draws possible too. You want to be getting it in on the flop here almost always .especially with the stacksizes in play.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

It's not all about how big his (40bb) stack is, it's effective stack sizes.

Do you think BTN has implied odds to call a player of that stack size who is raising from UTG?

No, I guess my main argument for raising more is to ensure the BB folds out his rags - to protect our hand.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

yes, that's exactly what we want when we have a value hand lol and the "more value" point is null and void, since we only have 18 bb to start with getting MORE value is kinda impossible since it's so easy to get stacks in even if we limp preflop. Quite happy to open the debate with min-raising over 3xing if you like, but you're gonna lose that one

basically, it doesn't matter, 2x 3x 4x whatever, just raise it.

Well, I like a bigger than min raise to protect our hand. Good thing the BB didn't get priced in with A3 and instead had A2 or whatever.

 

[WiZZiM]

raising more to protect isn't really a thing, it works on tables where the players are decently knowledgeable, but If people have a hand worth calling, they will generally call, and once someone calls the remaining players behind them will all be priced into calling no matter if we make it 3x or 2x or somewhere in between. The thing is techincally they are not priced into calling since we are short stacked, their implied odds drop, and their reverse implied odds increase.

I think what you are getting at is that you don't want a multiway pot, but it's kind of unavoidable sometimes in lower level MTT, if your table is full of loose callers then making a play like jamming all in, or raising half your stack and never folding postflop works as well.

The thing is everyone has their own bias to what works preflop for them. For me personally having experimented with all sorts of raise sizings i found that 2.2x is around the mark i like to raise when antes kick in, basically just a little more than an obvious min-raise. But there are plenty of players who min-raise and win plenty of $ online, so again, i don't think it really matters that much, as long as you raise, it won't affect things much long term, and it's also one of those things that is pretty hard to get data on to prove if raising more works or if raising less achieves the same thing.

So it comes down to personal bias/experience in the games you play to what works, but saying his min-raise is bad here imo is just picking something out which isn't really a problem to begin with.

Clearly the bigger problem in this hand is the way he plays it postflop, it's a pretty clear jam or raise to commit.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

raising more to protect isn't really a thing, it works on tables where the players are decently knowledgeable, but If people have a hand worth calling, they will generally call, and once someone calls the remaining players behind them will all be priced into calling no matter if we make it 3x or 2x or somewhere in between. The thing is techincally they are not priced into calling since we are short stacked, their implied odds drop, and their reverse implied odds increase.

I think what you are getting at is that you don't want a multiway pot, but it's kind of unavoidable sometimes in lower level MTT, if your table is full of loose callers then making a play like jamming all in, or raising half your stack and never folding postflop works as well.

The thing is everyone has their own bias to what works preflop for them. For me personally having experimented with all sorts of raise sizings i found that 2.2x is around the mark i like to raise when antes kick in, basically just a little more than an obvious min-raise. But there are plenty of players who min-raise and win plenty of $ online, so again, i don't think it really matters that much, as long as you raise, it won't affect things much long term, and it's also one of those things that is pretty hard to get data on to prove if raising more works or if raising less achieves the same thing.

So it comes down to personal bias/experience in the games you play to what works, but saying his min-raise is bad here imo is just picking something out which isn't really a problem to begin with.

Clearly the bigger problem in this hand is the way he plays it postflop, it's a pretty clear jam or raise to commit.

Well said and I get what your saying. The amount raised preflop isn't that big of a deal. For me personally I don't like min raising, especially with antes. I would agree that I'm getting it in after the BB open on the flop.