$5 NL HE STT: Facing donk bets hand 8 - top pair and the nut flushdraw

[fundiver199]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

STT

Buy-in

5

Game Options

1. Turbo

Currency

$

Time for another fun donk betting hand. Game is a 5$ Fifty/50 SnG on Stars, opponent is playing VPIP 50 / PFR 20 over 10 hands. Obviously we are not folding here, but how do you extract the most value? Do you put in the raise on the flop or turn, or do you wait until the river, like I did? As played what sizing do you use on the river? All-in or a small raise?

pokerstars, $4.72 + $0.28 - Hold'em No Limit - 30/60 - 7 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 1,360 (23 bb)
MP: 1,475 (25 bb)
MP+1: 2,920 (49 bb)
CO (Hero): 1,650 (28 bb)
BU: 1,465 (24 bb)
SB: 1,680 (28 bb)
BB: 1,450 (24 bb)

Pre-Flop: (90) Hero is CO with 9♦ A♦
3 players fold, Hero raises to 150, 1 fold, SB calls 120, 1 fold

Flop: (360) 6♦ 9♥ 4♦ (2 players)
SB bets 180, Hero calls 180

Turn: (720) K♦ (2 players)
SB bets 180, Hero calls 180

River: (1,080) 5♠ (2 players)
SB bets 180, Hero?

 

[rastapapolos]

For me I'd like to size it between 60-75% pot OTR, something like 630.

 

[kitchy65]

"Obviously, we are not folding here" said for the laughs?

He's playing the hand like he has top pair, an over pair or AK.

He's auto-C-bets and then only a block bet on the river indicates he has a mediocre holding, top pair big kicker.

Makes sense he has AK, KQ by the turn (not two pair like K9s)
He wants to keep it small and thus any Ax in the hand IMO.

3/4 pot for value would be correct, but due to the stack sizes I'd expect him to fold everything out that wasn't a badly played SET/AA.
And you get nothing !

So you may as well go for the over bet, all-in and present it as a bluff.
Hoping he has called preflop with connectors 8,7 or better QJ for a smaller flush at this point.

 

[fundiver199]

"Obviously, we are not folding here" said for the laughs?

Yes exactly

He's auto-C-bets and then only a block bet on the river indicates he has a mediocre holding, top pair big kicker.

He called preflop out of the small blind and then led out on the flop, which is called a donk bet (leading into the previous street aggressor). A C-bet means, that you continue your aggression from preflop. And since I was the preflop aggressor, only I can C-bet. But that require him to check to me (play in flow), which he did not.

So you may as well go for the over bet, all-in and present it as a bluff.

All in is actually not even an overbet here. But this is exactly, what I did, because as you say, it can look more bluffy than a small raise. And given that his hand looked weak after making the same bet on all 3 streets, I wanted to give him a chance to put me on a bluff. A lot of recreational players love to be the table sherif, and this one did not let me down

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[kitchy65]

But this is exactly, what I did, because as you say, it can look more bluffy than a small raise. And given that his hand looked weak after making the same bet on all 3 streets, I wanted to give him a chance to put me on a bluff. A lot of recreational players love to be the table sherif, and this one did not let me down

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Sry, I misread and thought he was the aggressor.

Of course, all in is an over bet. Though technically it wasn't here, as you only had enough to make a pot size bet.
But lets not get into semantics.

Ah, I see he had 88
Surely there was room in your post to congratulate me on my fine hand reading skills?

Kitch Neagranu

 

[ipagan]

SB bets 180, Hero?

folds)

Opp bets 3 streets and I think we will not see much bluffs with this line, so don't see much reasons to call here

 

[fundiver199]

Sry, I misread and thought he was the aggressor.

No problem

Of course, all in is an over bet. Though technically it wasn't here, as you only had enough to make a pot size bet.
But lets not get into semantics.

If he had checked to me, all-in would be an overbet giving him worse than 2:1 pot odds to call. But when he bet 180 and I raised, he only had to call 960, and the pot was already 2.400 giving him odds of 2,5:1 to call, which is the same as a 2/3 pot sized bet. I am not saying this to be a dick. But when we raise, the important is the price, which the opponent is getting to call. The term "overbet" refer to a situation, where the opponent is getting worse than 2:1 odds to call, so this was pretty far from being an overbet.

Ah, I see he had 88
Surely there was room in your post to congratulate me on my fine hand reading skills?

You were absolutely right, he did not have a very strong hand

Opp bets 3 streets and I think we will not see much bluffs with this line, so don't see much reasons to call here

Guess you misread the hand history? On the turn and river I had the nuts, so clearly there is no reason to fold

 

[ipagan]

Guess you misread the hand history? On the turn and river I had the nuts, so clearly there is no reason to fold

Yes I didn't notice that you had a flush on the turn lol, sorry!

I would raise his river bet to all-in with simple logic - if he has garbage, then he wouldn't call any raise, and if he has a "strong hand" in his mind (top pair, two pairs, set, other flush), then he may call any raised bet..So most likely I would go greedy here, cuase I want to get maximum value from the nuts. If he ready to call, then he is not able to fold hist set and it's doesn't matter what sizing is.

On the turn our job is to play on stack. I wouldn't raise the turn to just let him continue betting on the river. That's kind of a tricky situation, because if he have only bluffs, then he might not be able to continue on the river and probably will not pay to any our bet (after he checks river), but he can call our raise on turn to get his "backdoors". I think that call would be more profitable, because we are not capped on anything and we have an options that the opponent will 1) continue betting on river cause he will think that we will raise with flush or 2) get his backdoors on the river and bet again . If we say, that opp will call our raise on turn, then he has a strong hand right here right now like a set or other flush. And no matter what he is ready to play on stack here, because he is not able to fold such hand, so that doesn't matter what we will do on turn call or raise. So that is the easiest part beacuse we don't afraid of anything and the hardest becuase the only times we got paid here is the cooler situation, when opponent doesn't fold his strong hand (or just overplay his one pair of anything, but it will happen much less often i guess). So we will get paid not so often in such situations, because the opp will fold all his garbage on any our raise on any street. So I think that call will be more profitable when the opp bets on every street.

Flop is the most difficult place here, we have lot of equity + backdoor nuts and his bet makes our life more difficult. If we think what do you want to call (not 3bet) on SB to play without the position? I have only 3 options in my mind for such player - any suited hands, pocket pairs or Ax hands that he is not able to fold preflop. All pairs higher then 10 or even 9 or 8 he probably will just push to resteal just like AJ+ i guess...Then we see that opp bets 3 bb, when the bank is 6 bb. This looks strong to me, I don't want to raise this bet, because 1) I need to raise to 8-9 bb to his sizing and what will I do if he calls and continue betting on turn (if I don't get a flush?) 2) And it's a big chance that we'll get a push on our raise that we doesn't want to call really...I think that on flop I would play more accuratly and just see what will happen text.

And why do you open 2,5 bb in 28 bb stack, this is you default sizing ?

 

[fundiver199]

And why do you open 2,5 bb in 28 bb stack, this is you default sizing ?

Yeah kind of is, but its also fine to go smaller. Definitely not bigger.

 

[kitchy65]

The term "overbet" refer to a situation, where the opponent is getting worse than 2:1 odds to call, so this was pretty far from being an overbet.

You were absolutely right, he did not have a very strong hand

The term 'overbet' is not nuanced, only the sizing. It's simply betting more than what is already in the Pot.

It doesn't matter whether that is by 100 chips or 5000. And If I waffle on long enough about this, then it may distract the reader from the blunder I made earlier when calling your pot sized shove... an overbet.

Cynically, I just think you wanted to share the win and weren't really confused by what size bet you should make.

Your opponent should have folded 88 to the shove. With both the flush and the straight draws getting there I wouldn't have called.
Maybe he thought you had raised preflop with AQ and it remained the only constant.

========

Incidental question (deeper stacked), what would you have done had the 5 diamonds appeared on the river?

 

[kitchy65]

And why do you open 2,5 bb in 28 bb stack, this is you default sizing ?

Yeah kind of is, but its also fine to go smaller. Definitely not bigger.

Nominal sizing to steal the blinds, small risk... positional advantage.
Solid poker.