5/10s in BB, SSS...correct call?

[ph_il]

OK, so this hand happened during Bob_Tiger's coaching session and we both have different views on it and we'd like other players views and opinions on it.

Bob asked that I post the HH of hand prior to the one in question to show what had happened before.

pokerstars Game #18435417052: Tournament #93683255, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/06/28 - 07:24:55 (ET)
Table '93683255 5' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ChristianMer (2270 in chips)
Seat 2: Geldwäscher1 (3515 in chips)
Seat 3: Elpizodas (1980 in chips)
Seat 4: Peace01 (5525 in chips)
Seat 5: Blacker_LT (4760 in chips)
Seat 6: krexe (600 in chips)
Seat 7: garycanning (7085 in chips)
Seat 8: TRM_SHRiMP (1030 in chips)
krexe: posts small blind 75
garycanning: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TRM_SHRiMP [Qc Ad]
TRM_SHRiMP: raises 880 to 1030 and is all-in
ChristianMer: folds
Geldwäscher1: folds
Elpizodas: folds
Peace01: folds
Blacker_LT: folds
krexe: calls 525 and is all-in
garycanning: folds
Uncalled bet (430) returned to TRM_SHRiMP
*** FLOP *** [7s Ac 3c]
*** TURN *** [7s Ac 3c] [Jh]
TRM_SHRiMP said, "nh"
*** RIVER *** [7s Ac 3c Jh] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
krexe: shows [7h Ah] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
TRM_SHRiMP: shows [Qc Ad] (a pair of Aces)
krexe collected 1350 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1350 | Rake 0
Board [7s Ac 3c Jh 2s]
Seat 1: ChristianMer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Geldwäscher1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Elpizodas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Peace01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Blacker_LT (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: krexe (small blind) showed [7h Ah] and won (1350) with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 7: garycanning (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: TRM_SHRiMP showed [Qc Ad] and lost with a pair of Aces

I can assure you that the results of this hand did not affect my decision making in the next hand negatively.

PokerStars Game #18435422173: Tournament #93683255, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/06/28 - 07:25:24 (ET)
Table '93683255 5' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: ChristianMer (2270 in chips)
Seat 3: Elpizodas (1980 in chips)
Seat 4: Peace01 (5525 in chips)
Seat 5: Blacker_LT (4760 in chips)
Seat 6: krexe (1350 in chips)
Seat 7: garycanning (6935 in chips)
Seat 8: TRM_SHRiMP (430 in chips)
garycanning: posts small blind 75
TRM_SHRiMP: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TRM_SHRiMP [5s Ts]
ChristianMer: folds
Elpizodas: folds
Peace01: folds
Blacker_LT: raises 300 to 450
krexe: folds
garycanning: folds
TRM_SHRiMP: calls 280 and is all-in
...This is where we disagree.
Uncalled bet (20) returned to Blacker_LT
*** FLOP *** [7c 7s Kc]
*** TURN *** [7c 7s Kc] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [7c 7s Kc 5c] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TRM_SHRiMP: shows [5s Ts] (two pair, Sevens and Fives)
Blacker_LT: shows [4c Ac] (a flush, Ace high)
Blacker_LT collected 935 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 935 | Rake 0
Board [7c 7s Kc 5c 9s]
Seat 1: ChristianMer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Elpizodas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Peace01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Blacker_LT showed [4c Ac] and won (935) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: krexe (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: garycanning (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: TRM_SHRiMP (big blind) showed [5s Ts] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Fives

My argument is that I view this as not that bad of a situation. Im getting about 2.3:1 to call heads-up and there is a good chance I am holding 2 live cards, so I have no problems going all in with a hand like this. Also, my stack is so low that I have very little to no shoving strength and FE, especially after I post my SB. Even if goes SB vs BB in the next hand and I shove, BB is getting about 3:1 to call with ATC. Take into account that this is a turbo and next blinds are 100/200. Another thing is the fact that this HU is probably the best case scenario for me. More likely than not, I'll be facing multiple opponents making it even harder for me to win, especially with my tiny stack, the raising blinds, and the great odds my opponents are getting to call with virtually ATC.

Also, they were sooted.
----

Bob's argument, in a nutshell, is that I can fold and wait for a better spot. Im sure he'll reply with more in depth, though.

So...opinions on this hand?
Im not questioning Bob's ways, he is the coach and has better results with MTSNGs and MTTs than I do. So, I don't know...I could be wrong and feel completely foolish.

 

[Steveg1976]

being SSS, one interesting option that I just picked up from reading sng strategy by moshman, and I could be misinterpreting it is to get as many people in the pot as you can to increase your winnings. In this spot with a weak hand you have already posted the BB and you don't have any fold equity. Maybe you can wait and UTG or UTG+1 shove then and hopefully you get 2-3 callers when you have a decent hand. you are a long shot to win so short stacked anyway make sucking out worth it and be in a much better situation rather than justing having to shove again right away anyway, fwiw imo.

 

[c9h13no3]

pot odds = get r in. You can get it in now as, at worst, a 65:35 underdog and win 860 (301 chip equity), or you can get it in later as a 50:50 with the opportunity to win 560 (280 chip equity). I snap call this stuff.

 

[CfPoker]

What is the relevence of the hand before? Nothing wrong there. It was unlucky yes, but I assume you're not going to go on tilt over such a basic beat.

Regardless of what happened in the last hand you have to call this. 3 possible situations:
1) Don't call and left with 280 chips - not good at all.
2) Call and lose - obviously bad.
3) Call and win - up to 935 chips - still not good, but much better than 280.

Let's say you get your money in in a better spot but it's only heads up. A double up then is nly worth 560 chips - still critically low. You need to take the chance now.

65:35 isn't a worst case scenario btw, it could be an overpair making you an 80:20 dog.

 

[ph_il]

What is the relevence of the hand before? Nothing wrong there. It was unlucky yes, but I assume you're not going to go on tilt over such a basic beat.

...No tilt. My coach asked me to include the hand. Maybe he'll say why.

 

[pantin007]

there is no way u should fold that unless it was a satty on the bubble but thats a different story
ur obv not pushing on the strength of ur hand but because of pot odds and having already committing more than 1/3 ur stack, ur stack is so low that u cant wait for a better spot to push

 

[Dwilius]

935*.4 374, 560*.6 336, 690*.5 345

About as good value as you can hope to get. I call, most likely 2 live against good stack LP raising your shortstack. First numbers are what you expect now, second are if it somehow folds to the blinds next hand and you have above avg hand, third is if you wait for good hand after blinds played 3way w/ dead money in sb

...and you need to win couple hands in a row to get back in it, go for 935 now like cfpoker is saying. Your next double up could get you somewhere.

 

[jaymfc]

I have terrible sss but I would not have hesitated , not a great hand but no choice imo . there have been times that I just could not force myself to do it and waited but you have to do it next hand imo .
sooooooooted trash is better than regular trash

 

[bob_tiger]

yea we did get unlucky with the AQ, nothing can be done about that, but I don't think that call with 510 was correct imo, wait I didnt word that correctly, Mathematically and I repeat Mathematically this play was correct but I just think 510 is so raggish sooted or not, I guess I just dont like this hand even though 5 and 10 are my fav numbers.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

this is a completely standard call. over a third of our stack is committed as the BB and if we fold this hand over a quarter of our remaining stack will be forced in as the SB. how on earth can we "wait for a better spot" when we're in this situation?

we have what are likely to be live cards and are obviously getting good odds too, of course.

 

[rob5775]

being SSS, one interesting option that I just picked up from reading sng strategy by moshman, and I could be misinterpreting it is to get as many people in the pot as you can to increase your winnings. In this spot with a weak hand you have already posted the BB and you don't have any fold equity. Maybe you can wait and UTG or UTG+1 shove then and hopefully you get 2-3 callers when you have a decent hand. you are a long shot to win so short stacked anyway make sucking out worth it and be in a much better situation rather than justing having to shove again right away anyway, fwiw imo.

Nope, you're not misinterpreting it... that's the strategy he suggests in this spot. Basically, you wait until a raise and good number of callers or a bunch of limpers. Since you are a super short stack you hope to triple or quadruple up (don't know five times, meh) with ATC.

Haven't tried it, but when you are short it seems a fairly viable strategy.

Oh... Philthy, that's a standard call IMO.

 

[dj11]

Harrington harps about 'M', and to him this would be a shove situation. But I believe he would be on the fence about calling here. He is big on first in vigorish.

I sort of differ, and favor waiting till I at least get some paint, hopefully an Ace-x. I'm no fan of T-5 s or offsuited, even though every straight you can make will have one or the other.

I too prefer to wait till UTG, UTG+1 for the potential of something bigger than a double up. Same applies with a MLP (massively limped pot).

Since you are getting coached, probably because something doesn't work the way you think it should, perhaps you should allow Bob to actually coach, and follow his lead, at least for a while. Like with any book, article, coaching you get, you need to understand what it is you are inputting, so that in time you can discard those things you don't like in favor of those things you do, and thus creating your own game.

Stack sizes not withstanding, the first hand might represent that you shove with good hands, and even though you got unlucky, the cards showed you weren't showing junk. It might normally have some value, but it short stacked you soo much that you were at the mercy of any two cards, The difference though between calling or initiating the action is large, and thus my preference to wait, losing the SB, but gaining early position and the more probably calling by multiple players, and thus a potential larger return if luck favors you.

 

[viking999]

I'd snap call it. Against an LP raiser, this is a pretty clearly profitable play given the pot odds. Sounds like some other people are saying fold and try to get into a good multiway pot with a better hand. I say, why not do both? Get it in now and hopefully win. Then you can still play in that second hand, probably for even more potential winnings. Plus, you have some fold equity after doubling, adding profitable steals back into your arsenal.