$400 NL HE MTT: K10suited hits top pair and flush draw on flop. Villain shoves.

[Mib3653]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

400

Currency

$

14 left, 7 advance. I have 85K chips, right at average. Blinds 1500/3000. I open to 7500 UTG plus 2 with K10c. Villain and chip leader only caller in cut off. Flop comes 10h, 5c,7c. I make pot size bet of about 20K. Villain shoves his 200K. My read is a set, A10, Ax of clubs or suited two pair. Action?

 

[300HPGOD]

A few things first, You say 7 advance... is this a satty tournament or does 7 get paid? You say you are average but average is above the median so you in the top 7 probably with some comfort. That makes a difference if its a satty and then if its a regular paid tournament then its up to you on how much a min cash means to you.

As for the hand. We have 28 BBs and if 7 handed (14/2 tables) then we are in the hijack spot with the chip leader directly to our left. I dont know what type of player chip leader is but if they are a bully with a big stack or aggressive even I am not sure how much pressure you can take off of 28 BBs with K10 suited. I think this is a hand in this spot that looks better than what it really is and its sounds tight but I would be folding pre. Interested in what others think on that.

Flop comes great for our hand with top pair and 2nd nut flush draw. Why are we betting pot on this flop? We dont like an overcard on the turn but are we that scared that we have to bet pot on flop because of it? If villain is a call station then Im fine with it (have to really be stationy) but without that its way to big especially given the hand we have. You bet 20k and at this point you have 77500 before the 20k bet counting your preflop action. So you bet over 1/4th of your stack here. I think villain would notice that and would never think you would be folding so their jam is probably legit. However, if I were to start the hand with less than 30 bigs and somehow bet 1/4th my stack on flop with 2nd nut flush draw and top pair 2nd kicker I would not be folding. I would not make that flop bet sizing as you did but if I were to, I would not be planning to fold.

 

[Mib3653]

Thanks. 2day tournament with 2 day 1’s. 65 players started on my day 1 and 7 advance to Day 2. Bet to build the pot and was surprised at the shove. Only played one orbit at this table as the third table (mine) broke when we got to 16, so I did not have much experience with villain. I thought he was strong as well. Turns out he had one of the hands I had put him on-5,7 suited. Put my odds at just about 50/50 and called. Both turn and river were blanks and I was eliminated. Happy with call and will have to think about a pre flop fold.

 

[Station_Master]

It's about a pot size raise so you are basically priced in and will have the equity to call. As said above a pot size bet is way too big here on the flop, you make villains life easy as he can just fold alot of hands that you could have got value from.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
As 300HPGOD say, you are not opening from "UTG+1", which is an early position seat. You are opening from HJ, since you only have 4 players left to act behind you. I also agree with 300HPGOD, and if the chip leader on your left is being very aggressive and pushing you around, then you can just nit-fold this hand and basically hope for the tables to be reshuffled or merged soon. Or wait for blinds to get so large, you can open jam and take the play away from him.

Flop
As others have said a full pot sized bet is way to large. When you have a combination of a made hand and a draw, you have less to protect from. Normally there would be 12 overcards to the board, which are bad for you. But now its only 9, since 3 of them gives you a flush. And even if one of those 9 cards hit, you still have your flushdraw, so you can still easily continue on the turn. If the chipleader is being very aggressive, this is a good hand to put into your check-call range and basically allow him to bluff away. Or you can go for a standard small C-bet like 40% pot. As played there is not even anything to discuss or think about. You already have 30% of your chips in the middle, and you have both top pair and a flushdraw. So this is the easiest call in the entire world. Sometimes you have the best hand, and when you dont, you are never drawing dead.

 

[dallam]

Thanks for the post, really interesting hand and position to be!


I don't think we should open this hand from that position.

The circumstances like a small amount of players are left till being advanced and chipleader is on our direct left need to convert our game tight or at least very accurate. 28bbs are a lot, and we do not wanna waste it on unnecessary spots.

Preflop if any 3-bet happens we're folding. If a call happens, not so many kind of boards support us. As you see we even managed to flop top pair second best kicker, yet feel uncomfortable how the action was going. So I support blind stealing attempts at this point which actually have a chance to ever win a showdown.

We came to steal, now opponent makes a 3-bet all-in on the flop. On a board like this, it's either nuts-heavy or a made combination. And neither them is giving us once again a comfortable spot, now we know we will gambling here a big if we calling this off or almost dead. And keep arriving at the starting point, it all started from a blind stealing attempt, having 28bbs which is such a solid stack to wait and picking up hands, not to push our game to the limits from earlier positions, very speculate hand and even chipleader on our direct left.

 

[ADRI7HO]

The guys above made the point very well.
Basically, based on your reading, you only hit the Ax club (currently), but it also has a lot of outs, which is not very promising.
I probably wouldn't have pushed the game with the K,10 card preflop, but by raising the flop, you already put in almost 1/3 of your stack with such a borderline card, which is difficult to fold now.
A tough hand.
It's a difficult hand and as I read above, in the end you were beaten by two pairs, I'm sorry, you'll have better luck next time.

 

[pentazepam]

Folding K10suited?!?

Have you all gone mad?

Just raise less PF and bet MUCH less on the flop (25-33% pot). Problem solved.

If he calls with 75s just because he has a big stack there is even more reason to play such a premium hand as a suited Broadway.

If he 3-bets (not abnormally large) you can call. Even shove if does it with a really high frequency.

 

[300HPGOD]

Folding K10suited?!?

Have you all gone mad?

Just raise less PF and bet MUCH less on the flop (25-33% pot). Problem solved.

If he calls with 75s just because he has a big stack there is even more reason to play such a premium hand as a suited Broadway.

If he 3-bets (not abnormally large) you can call. Even shove if does it with a really high frequency.

Most things in poker are based on situation. We have the chip leader to our left approaching the bubble. I am not at the table so I dont know what type of player they are and how they play with a big stack but are you ready to go to bat near the bubble being out of position with K10 suited? If you get 3 bet as an aggressive chip leader would do near the bubble their raise, even if you min raised pre, would not be small so it would be in the 20k range. You start the hand with 85k in chips. So we cant call here using 1/4th our stack out of position. We then would have to jam. How many times are you going to 4 bet jam K10 suited and feel good about it? Yes, they should be 3 betting you lighter here but its still not a risk worth taking. K10 suited in the HJ is fine to open... if we dont have chip leader to the left of us nearing the bubble and are as short as we are at 28 BBs. Starting hand strengths obviously change with position, who we have to our left, stack depth, etc. You cant just say folding K10 suited... What? without thinking about the context of the hand and the situation.

 

[pentazepam]

Most things in poker are based on situation. We have the chip leader to our left approaching the bubble. I am not at the table so I dont know what type of player they are and how they play with a big stack but are you ready to go to bat near the bubble being out of position with K10 suited? If you get 3 bet as an aggressive chip leader would do near the bubble their raise, even if you min raised pre, would not be small so it would be in the 20k range. You start the hand with 85k in chips. So we cant call here using 1/4th our stack out of position. We then would have to jam. How many times are you going to 4 bet jam K10 suited and feel good about it? Yes, they should be 3 betting you lighter here but its still not a risk worth taking. K10 suited in the HJ is fine to open... if we dont have chip leader to the left of us nearing the bubble and are as short as we are at 28 BBs. Starting hand strengths obviously change with position, who we have to our left, stack depth, etc. You cant just say folding K10 suited... What? without thinking about the context of the hand and the situation.

I did explain why the hand gets better, not worse, given the described situation from OP in my first reply. Even with normal ranges (and his is worse than normal if he is overaggressive), you don't open-fold KTs in a tournament from this position unless a satellite - and it's a least a call almost 30BB deep if faced with a normal-sized 3-bet, especially from a weaker than normal range.

Also, remember that the villain called with a total garbage hand. You write about a scenario when he is often not only 3-bet often but 3-bet bigger than normal for a raise in position.

Either the villain three-bets very light or he only three-bets his stronger range - you can't have it both ways.

If we for some reason can know that he 3-bets big with his good range I can agree on what we can fold when facing a 3-bet.

But that is a long way from open-folding or folding to a normal 3-bet size.

And I don't consider almost 30BB to be short.