$4 NLHE MTT: How to extract more value out of this hand?

[jbbb]

So maybe the call pre-flop for 400 was a little loose on my behalf, but I thought if I hit my set i'd be in a huge multiway pot with a great chance of quadrupling up, so I took the risk for 400 chips.
At this point I put atleast some of them on AK, AQ, Pocket Pairs and the early limp-callers on [junk] like suited connectors and such.

I would like to know how I could have extracted more value from my set. At the time I bet into the pot in fear of being outdrawn as there were still 5 - 6 people left in the pot (I didnt expect them all to fold) but in heinsight, maybe I should have slow played or bet a little less on this very dry board which would have missed most of the ranges I gave.

So in summary, how would you play this for maximum value? Check to see a queen/king/ace on the flop and hope someone with AQ/AJ bets into me, or bet 800 like I did to stop people drawing on me?


[10/55]
##########################################
pokerstars Game 57615546378 / Tournament
Table 361184803 69 -
Blinds : 25/50
##########################################

9 players
[SB] Martas111 (2710)
[BB] niets79 (3000)
[1] Wille_Jay (7110)
[2] Pigelmee (2060)
[3] Dandanic (3355)
[4] carma24 (2220)
[5] mooringmaste (5040)
[6] Luminitza65 (12120)
[But] jacobbannier (2895)

jacobbannier 2

2

Initial Pot: 75

Wille_Jay folds
Pigelmee folds
Dandanic calls 50
carma24 calls 50
mooringmaste calls 50
Luminitza65 raises to 450
jacobbannier calls 450
Martas111 calls 425
niets79 calls 400
Dandanic folds
carma24 calls 400
mooringmaste calls 400
### FLOP ### 9

2

5

Pot: 2750
Martas111 checks
niets79 checks
carma24 checks
mooringmaste checks
Luminitza65 checks
jacobbannier bets 800
Martas111 folds
niets79 folds
carma24 is All in
mooringmaste folds
Luminitza65 folds
jacobbannier calls 970
### TURN ### 7

Pot: 6290
### RIVER ### J

Pot: 6290
carma24 shows 6

6

jacobbannier shows 2

2

jacobbannier wins 6290 from the main pot with Three of a kind, twos

 

[c9h13no3]

Fold preflop.

 

[baudib1]

preflop is an epic disaster

 

[BEERM4N]

please fold pre

 

[sweepnet]

I know the standard here is to fold, but I do this occasionally also, you are putting about 1/6 of your stack in, but know there are going to be at least 3-4 callers.

But after, I think your bet is fine, You still bet a little small for the pot and the others all folded. You dont want to many people there or you might get drawn out on. Just the way it goes.

 

[TheKAAHK]

If this was a re-buy I see no problem with your action. Otherwise this is definitely a pre-flop fold.

As played though, there was nothing really too terrible about your t800 bet on that flop. Though if maximizing value from 5 opponents was your goal, maybe a t400-500 bet would have looked enticing enough to get at least two callers (no more than what they had to call pf, and f they called that amount pre, they will just as easily call that post to fish for their overcard). As it turned out though it looks like you got someone to stack off anyways, so you got the value you were looking for in a sense.

But next time, just fold it pre.

 

[engman]

Despite the loose call (depends on what type of tourney you were playing and your chip stack), I don't think you did anything wrong. He pretty much did all the work for you w/ the shove.

 

[c9h13no3]

Wtf, how does the fact that its a rebuy allow you to make a call preflop that will NEVER be profitable?

 

[TheKAAHK]

Wtf, how does the fact that its a rebuy allow you to make a call preflop that will NEVER be profitable?

Do you play many low stakes rebuys? And never say never bud.

 

[c9h13no3]

Do you play many low stakes rebuys? And never say never bud.

I asked a question. It still hasn't been answered.

 

[TheKAAHK]

I feel I answered it well.

You made an assumption how calling 22 preflop will never be profitable. I answered that unless you have played many microstakes buy-in re-buy tournaments and understand the reasoning behind making such a call you will never understand how said call may in fact be profitable. Take the OP for example. You so adamantly say never, yet in that situation it was profitable. Never say never.

You math guys see things in pure black and white and sometimes fail to grasp situational factors.

If this was a rebuy, and Hero did make his set and stack another player, then hero havs 2x chips to work with. If you fail to flop your set and get stacks in, that is ok as well, as there are now more chips in play to get a hold of next time you do catch a strong hand.

Many players play re-buys with the intention of getting the money in in marginal spots in order to either stack up or flood the table with chips for future stacking opportunities.

I read a re-buy strategy article here on CC a while back that explains this all in length, but atm I am unable to find it.

Now having sad that, I am by no means a pro when it comes to re-buy tourneys. But I am open to different concepts, and while I may or may not agree with certain things, I am open to hearing about them and discussing them. It seems to me that you are not. You seem to have a very set mindset towards some things and instead of discussing such things you smugly reject them with statements like "never", and give no further reasoning as to why it is never profitable.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Fold pre.

The number of times you'll have "2x chips to work with" isn't enough to warrant spewing 1/6 of your stack (or more if you get oversetted) preflop when you are going to miss so often.

When you double up with TPGK vs a random donk's 2nd pair those 450 chips you saved will now be 900.

 

[Lofwyr]

Obviously this is a fold pre in any 'standard' scenario. All things considered though, you could just check-back the flop and let a turn card peel. With the checks around you can be pretty certain people are drawing to two outs at best and most likely have 6-outers to 2nd best hands. Hope one of them gets there and decides to be frisky. I mean...what possible turn card would make you change your mind about stacking off here?

If this were a rebuy the call is okay but you could just as well have shoved pre. During the rebuy period the +/- EV'ness of your hands/plays relates primarily to how much you intend to spend on your buyin and has almost no relation to your ultimate tourney results. So what if you lose 1/6 of your stack with a loose-call? Ship your stack sometime later and rebuy back to the full 3k...the goal should be going for 10k+ anyway and as long as you get the big stack it doesn't really matter if you won it as a 20:1 dog or got it in with the nuts every time. This is not really the right thread to get into a rebuy-period strategy discussion though...

 

[cjatud2012]

Easy fold pre. You're only getting like 6:1 implied, and you need 8:1 to hit your set - assuming you even get to see a flop. There are many still left to act, including the ones who limped into the pot in front of you, and any of them could 3-bet or back-raise, forcing you to muck your hand. It's really not close - you're never going to get paid off enough in the long run to make this worth it.

 

[cjatud2012]

I feel I answered it well.

You made an assumption how calling 22 preflop will never be profitable. I answered that unless you have played many microstakes buy-in re-buy tournaments and understand the reasoning behind making such a call you will never understand how said call may in fact be profitable. Take the OP for example. You so adamantly say never, yet in that situation it was profitable. Never say never.

You math guys see things in pure black and white and sometimes fail to grasp situational factors.

If this was a rebuy, and Hero did make his set and stack another player, then hero havs 2x chips to work with. If you fail to flop your set and get stacks in, that is ok as well, as there are now more chips in play to get a hold of next time you do catch a strong hand.

Many players play re-buys with the intention of getting the money in in marginal spots in order to either stack up or flood the table with chips for future stacking opportunities.

I read a re-buy strategy article here on CC a while back that explains this all in length, but atm I am unable to find it.

Now having sad that, I am by no means a pro when it comes to re-buy tourneys. But I am open to different concepts, and while I may or may not agree with certain things, I am open to hearing about them and discussing them. It seems to me that you are not. You seem to have a very set mindset towards some things and instead of discussing such things you smugly reject them with statements like "never", and give no further reasoning as to why it is never profitable.

While it's true that you should be more willing to take advantage of marginal spots in a rebuy, this really isn't one of those spots. The bottom line is it doesn't matter if we double up every time we hit (which we won't anyway), we're not going to make enough money in the long run. I understand that if we lose the chips we put into the pot, we can just rebuy and basically be back to where we were, but I don't think that can justify ever calling here, as even that is wasting money, even if you were planning on using that to rebuy all along.

 

[TheKAAHK]

Obviously this is a fold pre in any 'standard' scenario. All things considered though, you could just check-back the flop and let a turn card peel. With the checks around you can be pretty certain people are drawing to two outs at best and most likely have 6-outers to 2nd best hands. Hope one of them gets there and decides to be frisky. I mean...what possible turn card would make you change your mind about stacking off here?

If this were a rebuy the call is okay but you could just as well have shoved pre. During the rebuy period the +/- EV'ness of your hands/plays relates primarily to how much you intend to spend on your buyin and has almost no relation to your ultimate tourney results. So what if you lose 1/6 of your stack with a loose-call? Ship your stack sometime later and rebuy back to the full 3k...the goal should be going for 10k+ anyway and as long as you get the big stack it doesn't really matter if you won it as a 20:1 dog or got it in with the nuts every time. This is not really the right thread to get into a rebuy-period strategy discussion though...

Indeed it is not. But 'never' is such a strong word and I felt that it warranted some discussion for the sake of it. A different prospective, as it were.

While it's true that you should be more willing to take advantage of marginal spots in a rebuy, this really isn't one of those spots. The bottom line is it doesn't matter if we double up every time we hit (which we won't anyway), we're not going to make enough money in the long run. I understand that if we lose the chips we put into the pot, we can just rebuy and basically be back to where we were, but I don't think that can justify ever calling here, as even that is wasting money, even if you were planning on using that to rebuy all along.

See, responses like this are just sooo much more constructive than just one sentence blanket statements.

Now I'm not saying that even with a re-buy that always calling off 1/6 with 22 is ever a great idea. I was just trying to show that there are scenarios where it may be considered. I obviously know that it is losing in the long run, but wanted to make an argument out of it for the sake of creating some discussion.

Now in the OP of Hero had 99-QQ would this be any different? How?

 

[cjatud2012]

Yeah, I mean, your goals in a rebuy is to do whatever is necessary to get a huge stack before the rebuy period ends, so that is a case for calling. But -EV is -EV. I guess it depends on whether you feel that sort of risk is worth it, but I guess I feel (as well as many others) that this is just too -EV.

With 99-QQ I would just push for value, because you will be called by much worse, perhaps even by more than one opponent. Against two opponents with a 25% range you're 40-30-30, and the odds you're laying would be better than 2:1 in that situation, so you're crushing that from a cEV perspective, as well as from a "build your stack quickly" perspective. With 22, you're in a 30-35-35 scenario against the same range, which many would still be happy pushing (not calling) given the benefits of accumulating a big stack.

 

[Pascal-lf]

If this were a rebuy the call is okay but you could just as well have shoved pre. During the rebuy period the +/- EV'ness of your hands/plays relates primarily to how much you intend to spend on your buyin and has almost no relation to your ultimate tourney results. So what if you lose 1/6 of your stack with a loose-call? Ship your stack sometime later and rebuy back to the full 3k...the goal should be going for 10k+ anyway and as long as you get the big stack it doesn't really matter if you won it as a 20:1 dog or got it in with the nuts every time.

Proof?

 

[Lofwyr]

Proof?

Please refer to any of the 3-4 rebuy tournament threads that popped up in the main tournament forum over the last month or so. Most of them have responses that cover this topic. Again, this is not really the thread to discuss rebuy-period strategy.

 

[jbbb]

Thanks for replies. Read and digested