$4 NLHE MTT: $4 NLHE MTT: 4/180 : AQ vs a 3bet flops rags, what do I do?

MrEpic94

MrEpic94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Total posts
258
Chips
0
No info on villian.

Seriously dont have a clue how to play this at all?

All comments welcome!

poker stars $4.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos
BB: t6800 136 BBs
UTG: t5175 103.50 BBs
Hero (UTG+1): t3005 60.10 BBs
UTG+2: t2700 54 BBs
MP1: t2510 50.20 BBs
MP2: t735 14.70 BBs
CO: t1685 33.70 BBs
BTN: t1110 22.20 BBs
SB: t3455 69.10 BBs
Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is UTG+1 with A Q
1 fold, Hero raises to t150, UTG+2 raises to t250, 6 folds, Hero calls t100
Flop: (t575) 6 2 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets t250, Hero folds
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
You can probably fold this preflop. Generally if you raise UTG people respect it, so an UTG+2 3bet here should be pretty gosh darn strong. He's giving you great odds though. Actually, ask yourself this.

What hands are you happy to get it all in with postflop? That should hopefully answer this problem for you.
 
ManicLombax

ManicLombax

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Total posts
288
Chips
0
Agree the small 3-bet from UTG+2, with so many people to act behind him, is really scary. You're almost certainly behind, but I think you feel pretty good if the flop comes A high (if he has the last 2 aces then that's just a nasty cooler). You've also got a chance to crack him with a flush draw. Seems like you have to take a flop given the pot odds you're getting but I'd fold the flop too. Even if he only had AK (which seems unlikely) you're still losing.
 
MrEpic94

MrEpic94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Total posts
258
Chips
0
What hands are you happy to get it all in with postflop? That should hopefully answer this problem for you.

I think this is excellent. Pretty much shows that this is an easy fold OOP pre flop for me know.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
You can probably fold this preflop. Generally if you raise UTG people respect it, so an UTG+2 3bet here should be pretty gosh darn strong. He's giving you great odds though. Actually, ask yourself this.

What hands are you happy to get it all in with postflop? That should hopefully answer this problem for you.

But i can play this 7 handed right? 6?
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
Chips
0
people are actually advocating a fold preflop for 100 more chips?
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

Stacks & Stacks
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Total posts
8,253
Awards
1
Chips
148
people are actually advocating a fold preflop for 100 more chips?

What hands are we ahead of? What flops other than the stone cold nuts are we willing to play OOP against this raiser?
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
Chips
0
What hands are we ahead of? What flops other than the stone cold nuts are we willing to play OOP against this raiser?

you don't have to be "ahead" of any hands if you're getting like 5:1 on a call


also flush draws and Axx flops are perfectly fine flops for our hand


do you also fold AK in this spot?
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

Stacks & Stacks
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Total posts
8,253
Awards
1
Chips
148
you don't have to be "ahead" of any hands if you're getting like 5:1 on a call


also flush draws and Axx flops are perfectly fine flops for our hand


do you also fold AK in this spot?

Against villains range 5-1 isn't good enough and yeah same goes for AKs.

Unless you have specific knowledge otherwise this min-3bet is 90% AA/KK
 
ManicLombax

ManicLombax

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Total posts
288
Chips
0
Against villains range 5-1 isn't good enough and yeah same goes for AKs.

Unless you have specific knowledge otherwise this min-3bet is 90% AA/KK

I guess I can see this. Seems like with 5:1 odds you have to call, but what exactly do you want to see, except maybe a straight or a flush? Good odds to call now but nasty reverse implied odds. If a Q-high board comes, how much are you going to throw away? Only other positive situation would be if he's holding KK and you catch an ace, but he's probably not going to stack off even if that does happen.
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
Chips
0
not every pot is played for stacks
 
ManicLombax

ManicLombax

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Total posts
288
Chips
0
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
15,410,736 trials (Exhaustive)
AcQc 25.41% (3,861,636 wins, 108,480 ties)
AA, KK 74.59% (11,440,620 wins, 108,480 ties)

Yeah, if you're going to be all in with 5:1 odds you definitely call here. Most of your equity comes from when he has KK and you catch an A though, and I don't think he's going to give you all of his chips if you catch an ace, but you might give him more of yours in some of the other cases. Whole implied odds thing.
 
ManicLombax

ManicLombax

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Total posts
288
Chips
0
not every pot is played for stacks

No of course not, but he's probably also not going to let you check the hand down. In most cases some more chips will go into the pot, reducing your implied odds.

I'm still not sure I'd fold it given those odds, but wondering if maybe I should.
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
Chips
0
it seems ridiculous to me, but whatever
 
MrEpic94

MrEpic94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Total posts
258
Chips
0
you don't have to be "ahead" of any hands if you're getting like 5:1 on a call

why do the odds matter at all if;

1) We are OOP
2) Have just under 60bb left early in the tournamnet if we fold.
3) Are being 3-bet when we opened UTG.

Dot we want to avoid marginal situations early?

IMO calling just because we have 5:1 and a 25% chance of winning against the very tightest range of his. Doesnt negate the fact that we dont want to play these marginal spots early and there is no garentee we can get all the money in post flop.
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
Chips
0
i mean if you're a huge nit like that, just fold AQ UTG
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Total posts
3,904
Chips
0
It doesn't really matter if you're 25% to win with AQ against AA and KK, that's assuming you're seeing all 5 cards, which you most likely won't.

That doesn't necessarily mean I would fold to the min-raise though (how does that make sense? hah).

Also, maybe it's just me but I really really really hate playing in early positon, so I'd fold rather than open raise.
 
L

Lofwyr

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 4, 2010
Total posts
456
Chips
0
I play this hand pretty much the same way you did. Maybe one in 10 times I would put in a 4-bet? I dunno about that.

When you call, you have to understand that you have a very draw-oriented hand now. You want flush type boards and boards with straight options. With this hand you probably have to go with Q high boards and A high boards too, but those flush/straight-draw boards are going to be your ideal check-raise boards.

I don't think this raise is predominantly AA/KK. I think it's a strong raise, but more like AQs+, AKo, TT+. In this level of tournament you'll get donks that make that 3bet quite wide.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
shit, sorry.

I misread the stack sizes :O.

I thought we had starting stacks of 1500 i have no idea why i thought that, perhaps i should read a little more.

Yeah with a 1500 starting stack i'd be inclined to just fold, it's starting to become a huge chunk of our stack

HOWEVER

Since that is not the case and we are in fact much deeper i'd go ahead and make this call preflop, but we're essentially hoping for a miracle flop. I'd be trying to keep the pot small with any AXX or QXX flop, and would be only trying to get stacks in with two pair or some sort of awesome combo draw.

EDIT- My god i must have been tired when i saw this thread, i actually thought this was a STT as well.
 
Last edited:
PNJs_dad

PNJs_dad

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Total posts
403
Chips
0
Against villains range 5-1 isn't good enough and yeah same goes for AKs.

Unless you have specific knowledge otherwise this min-3bet is 90% AA/KK

You're folding AK preflop for fear of seeing AA or KK? Really? You realize that since you would have 1 Ace and 1 King here he only has 6 combos available to him to make either AA or KK(out of a crap-load of combinations). If you add QQ combos he would have 12 ways of having the top 3 hands. Never fold AK or AQs in this situation. This is extremely early in the tourney and both players have enough chips to play this hand. If the villain had say 800-1000 chips then I would say push or fold but with the stacks the way they are you need to call.

What hands are we ahead of? What flops other than the stone cold nuts are we willing to play OOP against this raiser?

Well 22 has got us beat. And no I'm not saying villain has deuces but you got to quit seeing skeletons in the closet and consider the odds to call. 4.75 to 1 are great odds I think with AQd.

As far as flops I would bet ANY flop with an Ace, Queen(obv) or Jack as the high card cause i'm actually thinking AK here or a lower pair. Also flops that have 2 diamonds unless maybe a King is one of them then I would hope to call a small CB. Also if your lucky enough for some kind of Up/down straight draw say 9 10 J flops(unlikely) I probably check and try to see a cheap turn but if they contain 2 diamonds I'm check raising hard. Take the positional advantage away and at the same time define villains hand. If you are re-raised you can always fold and have a lot of chips still to play. But at least define villains hand and quit being afraid. If you fold every time you raise and get re-raised you will be RUN OVER. PERIOD.

why do the odds matter at all if;

1) We are OOP
2) Have just under 60bb left early in the tournamnet if we fold.
3) Are being 3-bet when we opened UTG.

Dot we want to avoid marginal situations early?

IMO calling just because we have 5:1 and a 25% chance of winning against the very tightest range of his. Doesnt negate the fact that we dont want to play these marginal spots early and there is no garentee we can get all the money in post flop.

1. Why we will bet alot of flops post-flop taking his positional advantage away.

2. We call 100 more and end up check-folding the flop we still have 58 bbs left and it will still be early in the tournament.

3. Until we get a read on this player I like to assume that I'M the better player and I for 1 am not scared to play a pot with a weaker player. He has to prove me otherwise or at least out-flop me.

4. (I added one for the last paragraph) Tightest range? Marginal spots? No one is saying go all-in here pre or post-flop. What is the villains range BTW? No one knows. Most villains in $4 tourneys are idiots and you shouldn't be afraid to play against them.

Sorry had to post my thoughts....that's the great thing about this site. All of the points of view. But together LET'S PUNISH THEM ALL!!!!!
 
Top