$4 NLHE MTT: 22 - MP

[Ambur]

poker stars, $4 Buy-in (600/1,200 blinds, 150 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players

MP1: 33/22 hands 21

other's active players are passive, so i decided to squueze - probably not the best play but, seriously what would you do on flop when u get called?

SB: 58,745 (49 bb)
BB: 59,737 (49.8 bb)
UTG+1: 11,968 (10 bb)
UTG+2: 14,667 (12.2 bb)
MP1: 11,198 (9.3 bb)
MP2: 18,538 (15.4 bb)
Hero (MP3): 37,140 (31 bb)
CO: 11,835 (9.9 bb)
BTN: 80,679 (67.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 2

2

2 folds, MP1 raises to 2,400, MP2 folds, Hero raises to 6,000, 4 folds, MP1 calls 3,600

Flop: (15,150) 6

A

Q

(2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (15,150) 4

(2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks

River: (15,150) Q

(2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks

Do not look spoiler, result in there! - comment and then look!

Spoiler

Results: 15,150 pot
Final Board: 6

A

Q

4

Q

MP1 showed J

K

and lost (-6,150 net)
Hero showed 2

2

and won 15,150 (9,000 net)

 

[Michael Paler]

You re-raised in middle position with the smallest pair you could get? Then you just check it down? Not even a C-bet?!? Are you kidding me?

Let me ask you something; had MP1 bet out on the flop 1/3 pot, would you have folded there or to his next 1/3rd bet, on the turn? Or his small/large river bet? Or would you have just called with an under pair to the board all the way?
OR
If you had C-bet, then he shoved or check-raised you, would you have folded? Or called? Or shoved?
You get my drift? Unless you are a total calling station, that flop hit his raise/flat-a-3-bet range hard! It should have only taken a two barrel bluff to get rid of you. If not, you need to see what happened for what it is; you both played this badly.

When you 3-bet (IP or OP) light (And 22 is pretty light) you have to have a plan for the flop/turn/river. That it was checked down was pure luck. You had -0- plans for this. Assuming you are not a calling station, you would have almost certainly had to fold to any serious bet, and lost all those chips with a lousy pair of ducks. Even if he was a aggro loon with 4-7 off, you would have been toast.

Sorry, just my HO. It really does not matter if you won or not. I would not let a win, if you did, go to my head!

 

[Ambur]

MP1 is shortstack! After squeeze i do not have fold option vs MP1 - but he just called my squeeze which is weard his part imo

MP1 cold calls my squeeze and investing more then half his stack OOP! - i do not really know what range could play like that!

Postflop: I know i played postflop bad probably should bet - we have no fold option, but what is the most profitable place to bet: flop, turn, river? - i mean do we have fold equity here at all? Or should just check it down?

 

[WiZZiM]

just muck it preflop, not sure what is going on in this hand tbh. I understand trying to isolate the original raiser, but he's raising with a stack under 10bb, he's rarely folding and we're taking flips but the problem is there are still players left to act, if you are in the BB i can understand just wanting to make him pay to see the run out, but you have 4 players left to act, all of which can do things.

You can never fold postflop as you are pot stuck, so when you get yourself into this spot just bet the flop and try to make him fold his equity, i mean, if he bets turn you fold here? if not, then just bet him out of the pot, i know you have little to no fold equity, but betting has more of a chance at him folding than check/calling does

 

[Ambur]

just muck it preflop, not sure what is going on in this hand tbh. I understand trying to isolate the original raiser, but he's raising with a stack under 10bb, he's rarely folding and we're taking flips but the problem is there are still players left to act, if you are in the BB i can understand just wanting to make him pay to see the run out, but you have 4 players left to act, all of which can do things.

You can never fold postflop as you are pot stuck, so when you get yourself into this spot just bet the flop and try to make him fold his equity, i mean, if he bets turn you fold here? if not, then just bet him out of the pot, i know you have little to no fold equity, but betting has more of a chance at him folding than check/calling does

Hoped you could see the true beauty of this hand, but seems you can not
All active players are passive!

Hero will never ever fold vs MP1 after succesful isolation -preflop/flop/turn/river! - seriously, even check down is slightly +ev or break even at worst case vs MP1 since we are collecting dead money and it is coinflip vs his opening range! 50/50! And we rarely see pocket pairs here since he probably would go AI with those hands preflop according his position and given stack size!

It is really bad play from MP1 really - investing more then half stack preflop and making such a call down!

 

[hffjd2000]

Though you won and table is passive, your play likewise is so passive.

I believe in my mind you still has fold equity if you had bet.

 

[WiZZiM]

No, i must be on a much lower thinking level in poker bc checking and planning to call any bet does not make any sense to me at all, if we raise to isolate we need to charge him to see the next two cards, bc if his unpaired stuff hits he will no doubt bet, but if he misses he gets to see the river for free and we miss value from his unpaired hand range. If we can fold out any of his range that would just be a bonus, but the idea of isolating is that we think 22 is good enough to see all 5 cards in a showdown, the flop is'nt a great one as it will hit his range more often, but our raise preflop commits us to the pot. I just wonder what would happen if villian snap jams the flop bc it's not an easy call since that flop will likely hit him pretty often.

You also say that we are 50/50 vs his range and we are collecting dead money, but it's not as clear cut as that. we still have 4 players left to act, and theres a decent chance we cannot get this to HU, making our play worse than it actually seems. Obviously if we get our iso raise through them all then we are 50/50, but if we do a bit of flop anaylsis we are likely not 50/50 on this flop. So i'd think you might want to do some actually ev analysis on this rather than just throwing out "oh this is +EV spot" type lines. I'll do a bit of a analysis on this hand, just need to work out his preflop range, I'm thinking AX 33+ Broadways, some suited connector type hands will all call (will be back with findings as i might be wrong here).

The only other thing that is not making sense to me here is "the players left are passive!". I'm not sure what this means. Does that mean they are tight and unlikely to do things preflop without hands? BC to me, passive means they like to call a lot, meaning our iso raise won't do what it's supposed too often enough. If remaining players are all nits(tight) then it makes more sense

 

[WiZZiM]

so the range is still questionable, if he has more suited connector type hands then it pushes it closer and closer to breakeven.

Here is data vs the range i think is a decent one i think will be close
MP2 75.79% 75.38% 0.41% 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo, T9o
MP3 24.21% 23.80% 0.41% 2d2c



To get this to breakeven i put the original raiser to an ATC range
MP2 55.55% 54.96% 0.59% random
MP3 44.45% 43.85% 0.59% 2d2c


We could make this better by taking out some of the higher end Ax type hands and monsters which would likely just shove over our raise preflop. so results with same range but with monsters taken out of range

MP2 75.44% 75.00% 0.44% JJ-22, ATs-A2s, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, AJo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
MP3 24.56% 24.12% 0.44% 2d2c


So similar range with monsters taken out

So there is no way on this flop we are 50/50 vs his range, we seem to be far worse. Now with dead money in pot already we still have very good odds, but hopefully this helps you understand the overall play a bit better. Now this is only the data from this specific flop, other flops would mean this is more in our favour, so lets look at data from the best flop imaginable something like 234 which won't hit villians range, and gives us plenty of outs and his Ax type hand outs are blocked to see how good it can get for us if we hit the perfect flop...

MP2 37.50% 35.70% 1.81% JJ-22, ATs-A2s, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, AJo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
MP3 62.50% 60.69% 1.81% 2d2c

So the data from one of the best flops we can hope for that doesn't contain a 2 and we are a solid 62% favourite. Any other flop gets worse for our hand.

 

[Ambur]

- Sorry should have been more specific about describing active player, i assumed people will understand and take active players as passive "tight".

-I know very well MP1 range, based on the given dynamics and the situation which occured! And vs MP1 range we are coinflipping most often!

-If i made that preflop 3bet re-raise i had certain game plan for postflop already on this! (It really does not matter which cards or what is the postflop board if MP1 calls, since i do not fold - i will go for showdown, otherwise it is not profitable). Since i knew his range is mediocre and probably hit board hard, that's why i made that passive checking line postflop (note that hero will not fold most cases postflop vs MP1).

-I really did not expect to get called by MP1, that's why this weird situation occurred.

-People who doesn't believe his range is what it is (based on given dynamics), do not take the line as i did and just fold the preflop and save yourself from the hassle! But i do not like the word believing anyway, since believing is subjective opinion of whatever person will think!

 

[WiZZiM]

look i'm not going to argue with someone who clearly doesn't want to be helped. If you think this is a good play gl to you sir, but until i see some facts, ranges, math or solid logic i'm just gonna leave your HA threads alone and best of luck to you.

 

[Ambur]

look i'm not going to argue with someone who clearly doesn't want to be helped. If you think this is a good play gl to you sir, but until i see some facts, ranges, math or solid logic i'm just gonna leave your HA threads alone and best of luck to you.

Preflop is good play (usually pre, is fold which is standard i would say or 3bet given info is okei), but postflop (i am really not sure, was bad play from my part) - should have bet on flop probably!

Initial purpose and plan was:
To re-raise and if some active big stack woke up, will fold preflop or reevaluate situation (if get called) on flop where really 22 plays really poor vs any calling range! - Which makes folding standard play! - I made that play because table was tight, not just tight but active players higher vpp where 15!

Thanks for your help anyway - seems all critizise my play! Really your working out ranges here are hypothetical and for me was clear preflop play! If you use your empathy, there should not be pocket pair at all on his range (given position+stack size less then 10bb) and i really do not know which holding will bet and call preflop according his stack size and the position!

This was investment total of MP1 stack, where we are coinflipping! - all what it is! If we get re-raised by big stack, will fold insta and take our losses about 17% our stack - but this very rarely happens that we do not get succesful isolation, since table is "tight"! - If there where one loose player i would say fold preflop is only way to play it according our position and our hand strenght on postflop!

I will say MP1 preflop range probability density (is most of the time) vs hero is break even! I want apologise, if i offended you somehow!

-I wish best luck to you also and i get your point, but this really does not convince me folding this hand preflop given dynamics or postflop vs MP1!

 

[WiZZiM]

I'm not offended, i just don't see the point of posting this hand if you don't take on what people are saying.

you still have yet to show me anything apart from personal opinion that your play is good or bad. My personal opinion is that it's bad, and i backed it up with a few equity calcs that show postflop is not a 50/50 situation for us. Even preflop we are rarely ever 50/50 it's usually 45/55 in favour of the opener with a low pair hand like 22.

If you want to argue a point you really need to actually back it up with facts, not just "oh well it's profitable and a breakeven at worst play". That does not mean anything. It's like me saying you should 3bet and fold here, because i think it's a good play. That's the same as you are stating above.

I don't really want to convince you that your play is good or bad anymore as i don't really want to spend anymore time on this hand. But if you want to actually have a converstation about it, come back with solid evidence or solid thought process and logic and we can talk about it. Would be good to have other opinions about this hand that would change my mind, but it's simply an agree to disagree moment here lol.

 

[Ambur]

Going into stohastic's is not a good idea, since these situations can be avoided by just folding!

Thanks for your comments Wizzim. (I looked all your thoughts through)!

Maybe you are right, that i should have not post this hand at all - some thoughts for myself for future (no hand, no thoughts, no comments etc cool)

 

[PBG789]

Can I just point out that you did not squeeze you 3-bet.

Squeeze

Definition

A squeeze, or to put a squeeze on somebody, or a squeeze play, means to make a large raise after there has already been one raise and at least one call. Whereas the first player ideally folds, since he's now caught between two or more opponents and doesn't know what the players after him will do, the second player and all those after him often don't have strong enough hands to call a reraise and so will fold.


If the reraise is called, it is still possible to win the pot in subsequent rounds with a continuation bet.


Example:

Player A raises by $4.
Player B calls.
Player C raises by $20 -> he squeezes.



Prerequisites for a squeezeplay
Your own image, the styles of the opposition, your relative position to them and the stack sizes are the important factors for a successful squeeze.
A trivial ground rule is that a squeeze only makes sense if the opponents can fold. On the other hand, the range of the opposition, in particular that of the open raiser, must be large enough that he could hold a hand that he would immediately discard.
It makes no sense to squeeze if the opposition is very loose or the raising player only raises a few hands, so that he will seldom fold them. Furthermore, the opposition must respect your reraises.

 

[Ambur]

Thanks - should have yoused word `isolating`.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

yes, agree with PGB I was going to make that same point about isolating vs. squeezing.

Please understand that you are isolating in position as a bluff. And that is fine as long as you understand that it's a bluff. You seem to think it's a value play, and I whole heartedly disagree.

now, bluff isolating in position is OK, (though the stack set-ups make it much less likely to succeed) but the whole point is to attack when he shows weakness. When he checks to you on this flop, just Cbet it. Yeah, the flop is no good for us but basically no flop is good for 22 and it doesn't matter what we hold because we are just bluffing. He is passive. He checked. Take this pot down with aggression. If he calls your flop bet you are done with the hand.

I think you are overthinking a pretty straightforward spot. Value line= fold. Bluff line = 3bet to isolate and then apply pressure.

 

[Ambur]

Thanks should have apply pressure on flop!