$4.40 NLHE MTT: 180 SNG - Common post flop spot I struggle with.

[MrEpic94]

Pretty common spot postflop that I seem to find myself in. Basically want to know whats our line here when we hit. I dont really have a plan for when we hit.

Also do you like the call pre?

poker stars $4.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t125/t250 Blinds + t25 - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos
MP2: t11272 M = 19.60
CO: t10060 M = 17.50
Hero (BTN): t5023 M = 8.74
SB: t6412 M = 11.15
BB: t9032 M = 15.71
UTG: t11862 M = 20.63
UTG+1: t28590 M = 49.72
MP1: t9420 M = 16.38
Pre Flop: (t575) Hero is BTN with Q:heart: A:spade:
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t750, 3 folds, Hero calls t750, 2 folds
Flop: (t2075) 3:spade: 3:club: 6:club: (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t2000, Hero folds

 

[Brann6]

You have a really awkward stack size for post-flop play here, so my first move would be either to re-raise or fold, leaning towards fold

The pf raiser has a huge stack compared to most of the rest of the table, so the first question is, has he been using it to steal, steal steal? If so, I guess an argument could be made for a re-raise shove or a stop and go. The problem with a stop and go would be the odds he's getting to call as you really don't have the stack for any fold equity.

In my mind, that really only leaves me with two choices: shove pre vs a table bully or fold if he's a bit nittier.

8-handed, UTG+1 a tightish player probably isn't raising any looser than TT+, ATs+, AQ+. There's not much there that you beat, so re-rasing all-in pre seems bad.

If he's been really active and the table's been caving to his pressure, it could be argued his range is quite a bit broader, say 33+, A8s+, T9s+, KJ+. We do a lot better against this range and a shove pre will get him to fold most of those (which is what I'd really want.)

All in all, though, folding pre here still seems to be the right move.

(Just my opinion and I could very well be completely wrong.)

 

[Poker Orifice]

ship it!

 

[ManicLombax]

I'd probably ship pf depending on read too. Think about stop n go if you're first to act post flop and think you don't have fe pf. Not the case here probably.

 

[MrEpic94]

ship it!

when? why?

personally I just dont see the value in shipping 20bb pre with AQ.

Also I think that the line villian takes is one that they will take on alost every board to steal the pot. So my thinking was that I could afford to call pre and fold on a missed flop because when i do hit I can pretty much garantee gettin atleast a C-bet then probably a call because of the pot odds on my shove. When I miss I can just fold loosing only 3bb.

 

[ManicLombax]

I think with your M at 8 you're better off folding than call-whiff-folding. 2/3 of the time you're going to miss the flop and you just lost 1/6 of your stack with the call. I think 3-betting preflop is best, and with your stack size the only 3-bet that makes sense is all in. If you 3-bet less than all in, you're pretty much pot committed so you may as well get it in.

 

[Jillychemung]

You have an M<10 (IMHO you have to account for antes) so your only decision is fold or ship. You have to base this off your reads for the villain here. Has this Big Stack been very active, opening any unopened pots, always opening for 3xBB, folding to shoves, check folding any, etc.

 

[Poker Orifice]

"post flop spot I struggle with" < this is part of the reason, the rest is here ^

 

[MrEpic94]

thanks for the feedback. Some interesting points

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I'd fold this preflop most of the time unless I had some special read. Calling really puts you in a tough spot post flop so just stay away from that. As said above, shove or FOLD.

 

[ManicLombax]

So we pretty much all agree calling is the worst option of the three. So shove vs. fold I like shoving for two reasons:

- The raiser is the giant stack and if he's any good is probably raising wide trying to bully the table.
- You are pretty short stacked. Not desperate yet but AQ could be the best hand you see for a while. This might be a your best chance to take a nice pot or even double up.

Obviously your read on the big stack is pretty important in the decision though.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

So we pretty much all agree calling is the worst option of the three. So shove vs. fold I like shoving for two reasons:

- The raiser is the giant stack and if he's any good is probably raising wide trying to bully the table.
- You are pretty short stacked. Not desperate yet but AQ could be the best hand you see for a while. This might be a your best chance to take a nice pot or even double up.

Obviously your read on the big stack is pretty important in the decision though.

Yea, i don't hate shoving especially if this player has been raising a lot like you said. But what if he is new to the table or has just took a huge pot with aces after playing tight for an hour? I hate playing dominated hands especially against big stacks.

We are in position but he's most certainly gonna bet if he's any good.....

I still don't see the huge need to get involved unless he's a bully.

 

[WiZZiM]

Effectively we have only 12-13BB's not 20BB's. Does that change you're mind about the play preflop?

 

[ManicLombax]

Effectively we have only 12-13BB's not 20BB's. Does that change you're mind about the play preflop?

Eh? We're the short stack, our stack is the effective stack, right?

 

[MrEpic94]

So we pretty much all agree calling is the worst option of the three. So shove vs. fold I like shoving for two reasons:

- The raiser is the giant stack and if he's any good is probably raising wide trying to bully the table.
- You are pretty short stacked. Not desperate yet but AQ could be the best hand you see for a while. This might be a your best chance to take a nice pot or even double up.

Obviously your read on the big stack is pretty important in the decision though.

I think this pretty much sums things up.

Effectively we have only 12-13BB's not 20BB's. Does that change you're mind about the play preflop?

?? you make the no cents

 

[Lofwyr]

?? you make the no cents

I believe he's talking about effective bb's, which incorporate a portion of the antes similar to M.

Anyway...

I think this is a ship it spot. Unless the table has just been dead and passive and you can easily steal many hands. Against a relatively unknown player I think this is still a shove. Most people aren't nearly nitty enough to make it a fold and most people undervalue position. So you could easily be looking at 88+, AT+, KJs+, KQo or something for a "solid" random player. At least at these stakes. Your stack size is basically ideal for re-steals or 3-bet shoves. So take advantage of it.

That being said: if you're calling PF expecting to see the raiser bet this type of flop with ~100% of his range, you should probably be getting your chips in here. That flop is essentially a "hit" as far as AQ is concerned.

 

[MrEpic94]

That being said: if you're calling PF expecting to see the raiser bet this type of flop with ~100% of his range, you should probably be getting your chips in here. That flop is essentially a "hit" as far as AQ is concerned.

what flop textures are not a hit for AQ in this situation though?

 

[WiZZiM]

?? you make the no cents

The blinds are 125/250 with a 25 ante.

Pot is 575 Preflop, so the effective blind levels are nearly 200/400, with a 5,000 stack we have around 13-14BB's here. Not 20BB's, though it looks like we do.

The small ante changes a lot.

Theres a post around here written by Bwammo that explains it better than i ever could. I'll link it.

 

[Lofwyr]

what flop textures are not a hit for AQ in this situation though?

The ones that improve his hands that were behind AQ. Something like JTx. 89T suited, JKx, KTx, etc. Boards where all the stuff like AT, AJ, KQ, KJ improved in some way.

 

[Poker Orifice]

"adjusted blind size" = 'taking antes into consideration, ie. 20bb's might be equivalent to 13'adj'bb's

"effective stacks" = If we're in SB w 18bb.. & BB has 7bb's... 'effective stacks' are 7bb's.

 

[ManicLombax]

How does one compute adjusted blinds, by the way? I haven't heard that used before this thread.

 

[ManicLombax]

Never mind I just found it.

1 effective BB (EBB) = 2*(bb+sb+ante*players)/3

So basically EBB = 2/3 of the starting pot. And your EBB stack is 1.5 * M.

 

[PNJs_dad]

when? why?

personally I just dont see the value in shipping 20bb pre with AQ.

Well it's definitely a fold or an all-in. But don't think of it as an all-in. Think of it more as a strong re-raise that happens to put you all-in. You will just lose way too much of your stack(almost 20%) by calling cause you will miss most of the time and he will bet most of the time and you in turn will fold most of the time. If your opponent wakes up with AA, KK, or QQ then so be it. But if you really think that then why call in the first place. Why not play your hand strong. Push or fold.