$33 MTT - Flopped a vulnerable straight

Irexes

Irexes

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Interested in your thoughts on this as the speculative call preflop and the call rather than raise on the flop are perhaps a tad unusual and there's been a couple of threads about the lack of non-default play discussion in HH threads.

I'll stop the HH at my turn raise. Post the rest later :)

5th hand of $33 MTT I've done nothing so far. No reads.

***** Hand History for Game 6059031473 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny: 33940887 Level: 1 Blinds(20/40) - Wednesday, June 13, 14:05:46 ET 2007
Table Regular (1049234) Table #18 (real money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: swainboy1984 ( 2,900 )
Seat 3: l0kko ( 2,240 )
Seat 4: ozner111 ( 3,000 )
Seat 5: sikeboss ( 4,860 )
Seat 6: assjeblieft ( 2,000 )
Seat 7: BrownMud ( 2,080 )
Seat 8: nesbitt777 ( 7,100 )
Seat 9: Irexes ( 2,880 )
Seat 10: jeroen448 ( 2,940 )
Seat 1: WebInFront ( 3,020 )
Trny: 33940887 Level: 1
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Irexes [ 9h 6d ]
sikeboss calls [40]
assjeblieft calls [40]
BrownMud calls [40]
nesbitt777 folds
Irexes calls [40]
jeroen448 calls [40]
WebInFront folds
swainboy1984 calls [40]
l0kko calls [20]
ozner111 checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 7c, Ts ]
l0kko checks
ozner111 checks
sikeboss checks
assjeblieft checks
BrownMud bets [120]
Irexes calls [120]
jeroen448 calls [120]
swainboy1984 folds
l0kko folds
ozner111 folds
sikeboss calls [120]
assjeblieft calls [120]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
sikeboss checks
assjeblieft checks
BrownMud bets [400]
Irexes raises [1,000]
 
S

Shandy

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Preflop- i don't mind this, 3 have already limped, so implied odds if you hit are very high, also there are still a few to act who will also probably limp with ATC due to the implied odds.
Flop you have hit the second nuts, and i think that slow playing them is the only way to get true value, when you play these speculative hands, you want to get as much value as you can, and you might as well let one or more of the players acting after you limp along, which i think they will do with even two overs. Also although the flop was nice to you a nine or a club would really hurt, and i feel that you limit the chance of getting bad beat ie you raise and get heads up with a J10, and he hits the 9 on the turn or river to take the pot, so you are building the pot nicely, and with very little risk to your stack.
The turn- a very nice card for you, didn't pair the board, the 400 bet by opponent is probably going to scared most of the others off any way, so you might as well raise him, and try and get him all in, and its just a cooler if he has J9.
Shandy
 
calibanboy

calibanboy

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Well, My view is that after flopping the straight, If you get beat by J9, so be it, especially this early on in a Tny with fish about. I think that must be your view as your 1000 raise pot commits you if you get re-raised all in I think. However J9 is a hand that would limp here PF.

If you get beat by a someone drawing to a flush/Full house then fine - you were leading when your money went in.

Your right that none of this is standard play, but its the start of a tny. If you are going to so this type of thing ( eg play loose passive in early stages of hands) then this is the time to do it as the rewards can set you up for the rest of the TNY.

How many times do you see a donkey race to the lead early on in a tny in an unorthodox manner only to then blow up. I get the feeling that you will adapt through the tny so you do not do that ( assuming you get through this hand )
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Well, you know I'm not in your league, Rex, but,

When the table gives indications of being limpy I don't mind being limpy early with speculative hands.

On the flop I'm a concerned about a 9 showing up later, or with that many hands in, a third club. On the other hand, because there are so many in, it's going to be hard to encourage drawing hands to reconsider since if you get one person calling, giving the following hands better odds.

On the turn you've only got one hand that hasn't played yet, and Mud seems to have paired the ten or something, and the first two have checked again. Seems like a good point to get money into the pot, and encourage AT/flush draws to think, J9 to start to show themselves.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I like raising that flop. There are 23 potential cards on the turn (any club, 7, 8, 9, 10) of 47 (obv near 1/2) that are going to make you play it timidly against a large field of limpers. Raise to 2/3 or so of the pot on the flop to build it and drive some people out. Then when the turn comes good (like it did) you can push the rest. By raising on the flop you hope to gain some position as well.
 
t1riel

t1riel

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Raise the flop. There are two clubs and with all those limpers, QJ, J, 10 or worse, J, 9 is possible.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Here's how it played out with my thoughts along the way,

***** Hand History for Game 6059031473 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny: 33940887 Level: 1 Blinds(20/40) - Wednesday, June 13, 14:05:46 ET 2007
Table Regular (1049234) Table #18 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: swainboy1984 ( 2,900 )
Seat 3: l0kko ( 2,240 )
Seat 4: ozner111 ( 3,000 )
Seat 5: sikeboss ( 4,860 )
Seat 6: assjeblieft ( 2,000 )
Seat 7: BrownMud ( 2,080 )
Seat 8: nesbitt777 ( 7,100 )
Seat 9: Irexes ( 2,880 )
Seat 10: jeroen448 ( 2,940 )
Seat 1: WebInFront ( 3,020 )
Trny: 33940887 Level: 1
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Irexes [ 9h 6d ]
sikeboss calls [40]
assjeblieft calls [40]
BrownMud calls [40]
nesbitt777 folds
Irexes calls [40]

Three limpers early on, I'm playing almost anything here and losing 40 chips the vast majority of the time. Very, very occassionally I'm winning a big pot but the advantage of doubling up early is huge compared to 45 minutes in to an MTT. Also I limp a few pots early anyone paying attention is starting to classify me as loose which I can capitalise on if I actually get a hand (this isn't a big factor but it all counts).

jeroen448 calls [40]
WebInFront folds
swainboy1984 calls [40]
l0kko calls [20]
ozner111 checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 7c, Ts ]
l0kko checks
ozner111 checks
sikeboss checks
assjeblieft checks
BrownMud bets [120]

Wowsers, 4 checks ahead of me a bet that looks speculative and 2 people yet to act. I've the second nuts here but it is extremely vulnerable. Any club, J or 9 and I am not happy. A 7 or 8 might bring the boat but I'm less worried there it also might give someone trips.

Against a smaller number of players I raise but I think here there's a chance of one of the early checkers having a set and reraising (not as many people bet a set here as should), there's at least one person who's caught a bit of it and there's two more to act. In an ideal world there's going to be a reraise behind and then some more action.

I decide to call hoping for plenty of action. Three things can happen.

1) There's a reraise behind - in this case I probably jam the pot as hard as I can while I'm ahead, if I payoff J9 then so be it.

2) There's no reraise and I see the turn versus 1 or more opponents and it's a scare card, lets say Kc.

3) There's no reraise and I see the turn versus 1 or more opponents and it's a "safe" card say 5d.

In the case of 2) a scare card - I have to slow right down. I'll bet out half the pot if it's unopened to me and call small bets but fold to anything significant. I'm not putting all my chips in with a club, 9 or possibly jack hitting (Against only the initial flop bettor if everyone else folded a jack would be less of a scare card and a club gives me the opportunity to represent the flush pretty effectively unless he also has it).

In the case of 3) a safe card - I am hopefully able to extract plenty of chips against would could appear to be a missed draw against hopefully active opponents. An overcard might wake up someone who was passive on the flop.

Essentially I am prepared to risk losing this pot and a few more chips in order to give myself a chance to double up (or better) here. I have no intention of going broke if a scary card hits - I will curse my luck but I'll let it go if the price is remotely unacceptable.

A reraise on the flop is a solid and good play here and will still get action from sets. However the call opens up opportunities for other hands to invest more chips in a juiced pot that might fold to a raise.

This is undoubtedly a gamble and later in a tourney or with an already decent stack not move I would consider.

The important thing is not what I do when there is no reraise and a safe card hits as happened, but how able I am to let it go if a scare cards hits and the action says I am beat.

Irexes calls [120]
jeroen448 calls [120]
swainboy1984 folds
l0kko folds
ozner111 folds
sikeboss calls [120]
assjeblieft calls [120]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
sikeboss checks
assjeblieft checks
BrownMud bets [400]
Irexes raises [1,000]

This bet is designed to make sure he calls and is pot committed on the river. It also makes sure if anyone else calls they are paying for the draw. It is likely they would have woken up by now though.

jeroen448 folds
sikeboss folds
assjeblieft folds
BrownMud calls [600]
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
BrownMud checks
Irexes bets [1,280]

Slight moment of concern about the paired board but he's probably not playing a flopped set like that. Check signals weakness but muhahaha you have to call given the size of the pot.

BrownMud is all-In [920]
Irexes shows [ 9h, 6d ]a straight Six to Ten.
BrownMud shows [ Td, Qh ]two pairs, Tens and Fives.
Irexes wins 360 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, Six to Ten.
Irexes wins 4,760 chips from the main pot with a straight, Six to Ten.
Player BrownMud finished in 194.

So yes I agree with the flop raise in most circumstances, but I was prepared to take the risk of losing the pot in order to hopefully build an early stack against a hand that would fold to the raise (either on the flop or subsequently because I don't look like I'm on a draw).

Most importantly I back myself to let it go and build a stack anyway if I lose 500ish chips on this hand following a scare card on the turn.

There you go folks, a non-standard move as requested :)
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
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Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
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Geez, this all looks familiar :)


You played me just like Mud the last time you and I played.

Or I play like mud, albeit with a smaller field, and I did raise preflop with a better hand/smaller table. But same deal, playing TP against an unexpected straight, and you got both of us all in.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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Apr 26, 2007
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Excellent play as usual Rex thanks for posting this.
 
Beavis68

Beavis68

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Feb 7, 2007
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Calling 96o speculative is a stretch.

I would dump it, but NH.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Usually raise flop, but a call sometimes is alright. About a billion turn cards are horrible for you either as far as outdrawing you or killing your action. Luckily you got a good one.

Raise turn bigger. You're giving the bettor easily the right implied odds on a flush draw, not letting him make a mistake by calling. And if he has a made hand, especially two pair or set, he's going to call a bigger raise. Even with a lone T he'll often call something to 1200-1400 because there are a lot of draws you can be semi-bluffing with. Given your stack you could also just shove and make it look even more like a draw. IMO, the smaller raise in a multiway pot kind of turns your hand face up... a draw is either going to just call or raise bigger to have actual fold equity. You're announcing you have a big made hand, which is information I prefer not to give to my opponents. Villain should have folded his QT after your turn raise, but he made a mistake and you got paid off.
 
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