$300 NL HE MTT: live tournment - busted on a bluff

[shlomom]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

300

Game Options

1. Turbo

AF

0

Currency

$

hi
wanted to share a hand from a live tournment, and would love some comments to make sure how bad or maybe not it was..

200 enteries mtt, 22 left, prizes at 14 left...
turbo tournment - 15min blind..

blind are 6k\12k i have 360k
i open to 32k from cutoff with 9c10c everyone fold to bb who makes it 90k to go, i call and we see a flop.

bb is a player i know to a bit loose so i assume he 3bet a bit wide..

flop - Kh10s2c

bb bet 70k i semi bluff shove all in with second pair..

my thinking - hoping he has qq jj maybe aj aq which he won't be able to call.

worst case againts aa or ak i outs..

worst of worst happend and he had KK for top set...

turn Qc best card i could hope for, river 4h and i lost the pot.

covered the bb by a bit and busted the hand right after..

is it a mistake to defend to a 3bet with hand like 9c10c?

for long run i am profitable in this field, but not my first time bluffing into a brick wall,
is it a mistake to bluff out all of our chips? should i just take the conservetive way on late stages?

 

[pentazepam]

1. Raise less pre-flop when the stacks are 30BB. Usually, 2-2.1x is enough to attack the blinds. It is also easier to defend with a call if the villain 3-bets. Now you have to defend for a much bigger part of your stack but against the right player, a call is probably still correct.

2. I think most players check with QQ, JJ on that flop which makes him much more polarized so he either has you beat (AA, KK, TT, AK). KK and TT should probably check sometimes on a rainbow board also. He semi-bluffs often with QJs and AQ and maybe some random light 3-bet hands IF he is LAG. You wrote that he is loose but is he also aggressive? If he is passive his range is much stronger than "normal" in this spot both when he 3-bets and when he bets the flop.

3. When you push he folds all his bluffs and calls with all his hands that beat you (except maybe QQ, JJ as you wrote). I think the better play is to just call and if you get a club, ten, nine maybe a queen on the turn you can continue to call (or shove). But the queen hits his range pretty good too.

The problem starts with raising so big with a short stack, so you face a bigger 3-bet and a bigger bet on the flop than if you just have mini-raised it.

There's nothing wrong with bluffing at the late stages against people who can fold even with a short stack, but most medium-strength hands are usually a check or a call.

And finally, you said you had a read on him but his 3-bet from the BB against your 3x 30BB deep is usually a very strong hand. Just because he is loose and calls with a wide range doesn't mean he 3-bets OOP with garbage. Most players just call most hands from the BB this short.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Agree that your open is to large for this stack size. Facing the 3-bet I would just fold. The problem is, its for 25% of your chips, so if you catch any piece of the board, its difficult to get away postflop. And against his 3-betting range any one pair hand is always behind to his made hands. So its almost like, you have to consider this a non all-in all-in. So ask yourself, if he had jammed for your 360k, would you then have called? And obviously the answer to that is a big "no". And if you think, he is out of line, then why not 4-bet jam? Seeing the flop wont make your decisions easier, unless you miss, so why not put him to the test and seize whatever fold equity, there might be? So my first choise here is to fold, my second choise is to 4-bet jam, and the worst option is the one, you took, which is to call.

Flop
This is exactly the problem with calling pre. You flopped second pair, and now what? There are some hands, you potentially beat, like AQ and AJ, but thats pretty much it. It feels really tight to fold, but the problem is, if you call, now you have almost half your chips in the middle, and what are you going to do, if he jam the turn? If the answer is "fold", unless you have improved on your 5 outs, then you might as well fold now. Instead you jam, and you say, its as a "semi-bluff". But this makes absolutely no sense, because he is never folding out a better hand. A jam here is only for protection against hands like AQ or AJ, and you will get snapped off by all the hands, that beat you. Maybe once in a blue moon he bet-fold QQ and JJ specifically, but this is such a small part of his range, especially since those hands probably dont bet the flop in the first place.

Results
So he had top set, and while this is the worst case scenario, its not surpricing, he turn up with a premium hand. Almost nobody has a balanced range for 3-betting small from BB with short stacks near the bubble. This is almost always going to be AK or a big pair, and this is why, you can just fold to that 3-bet and move on to the next hand. Defending to a 3-bet in position with a suited connector like JTs is fine, if we are 100BB deep. But 30BB deep there is just not enough playability or implied odds to justify it.

 

[shlomom]

thanks..

is it standard to bust every once in a while on an air bluff? should i feel bad about it?

here i had a pair but also had cases where i shove off all my stack on a bluff, or a gutshot hand like kq bluff running into low pair making two pairs on the turn.

on other occasions - where the big bluffs on late stages were successful i ended up winning the tourment.

but i can hardly remeber when i won big without bluffing at least once..

in general, should i avoid these crazy bluffs?
or is it necessary in order to win consistently?

 

[fundiver199]

bb is a player i know to a bit loose so i assume he 3bet a bit wide..

This is where your analysis goes totally wrong. Just because someone is "a bit loose" does not mean, they 3-bet wide in this particular situation. He is in BB, so he is closing action and getting a good price to just call. More importantly 30BB effective is an extremely awkward stack size for 3-betting. If he jam, he is getting a bad risk-reward. And if he 3-bet small, he has to put in a substantial portion of the effective stack to get any fold equity at all. Its also very bad for him, if you 4-bet jam, because due to ICM he can only call that off with a very tight range. So nobody are 3-betting even remotely light here. Its always a premium hand like AK, JJ+ or for some players even tighther than that.

is it a mistake to defend to a 3bet with hand like 9c10c?

Yes because of the above its a massive mistake to defend with T9s, and it cost you your tournament life. If it was early in the tournament, and you were 100BB deep, then it would be fine to defend.

 

[300HPGOD]

I agree with others have said based on the stack depth you cant call this off here for 25% of your stack to start the hand. I think the only two plays here pre, once you are raised, is to fold or to 4 bet jam if you think they are light and will fold. I dont like jamming there but I think jamming is better than calling the 3 bet. Folding is the best option. As others have said, if we were way deeper than you see a flop with this hand but at 30 BBs you will get yourself in a lot of trouble.

As played on the flop I think your jam is targeting too narrow of a range, simply QQ and JJ. No Kx is folding and depending on how wide villain really is with their 3 bets off this stack (Im thinking less wide than you believe) then I dont see why we would jam here getting a snap fold from all the crap and snap call from the hands that are ahead. I think at this point you should fold if you didnt already on the flop however, if you are going to continue then I think it should be just a call with the plan of going with 2nd pair (I dont recommend this but I think its better than jamming) and letting villain bluff it off. That or you could call flop and then being in position see what villain does turn (I think you are committed anyway but if they check you can throw a bet out there as it might have been a flop c bet stab at the pot). As others have mentioned though, this is the problem with calling the 3 bet pre with 109. When you do hit the flop you are not dominating normally and you cant call pre, then hit the flop and then fold so when you call the 3 bet you are getting yourself stuck in the hand.

 

[eetenor]

thanks..

is it standard to bust every once in a while on an air bluff? should i feel bad about it?

here i had a pair but also had cases where i shove off all my stack on a bluff, or a gutshot hand like kq bluff running into low pair making two pairs on the turn.

on other occasions - where the big bluffs on late stages were successful i ended up winning the tourment.

but i can hardly remeber when i won big without bluffing at least once..

in general, should i avoid these crazy bluffs?
or is it necessary in order to win consistently?

is it standard to bust every once in a while on an air bluff? should i feel bad about it?---Yes it is standard to fight to win chips with bluffs---in the right spots. If you reread the above posts you will see how the data you had suggests this is not the spot most often to bluff

in general, should i avoid these crazy bluffs? Yes avoid crazy bluffs instead use the data you have in game to pick good bluff spots even with air and do not turn hands with good equity into crazy bluffs or as stated in prior posts do not call preflop with the wrong ranges ( your ranges are stack and V dependent) and put yourself into a spot that you have to "crazy" bluff

GTO Wizard has a free option studying preflop ranges is unlimited for 8 man MTT with multiple stack sizes and you can play post flop one hand everyday

 

[dallam]

Hi, thank you for the post!

Solid buy-in and oc live has a different atmosphere.

Without really knowing the stack sizes, 22 left and 14 pays so we are standing great to catch some, or going even deeper. And of course our game will mirror this attempt back in this stage.

From this position the stealing is pretty appropriate with this combination, but nothing really more. You have 30bbs left before the action. So you will attempt to steal from late positions with valid combos or chances, it's facts. Atlhough your range is still good enough to take it seriously, you won't do this with any garbage. In fact, this is maybe one of your really bottom of your opening range.

When you say opp is LAG, I still think that this person will dominate your hand 100% pre. And this is the spot where you do not want to be eliminated on a sloppy flop. So fold is really something which can help you in a long term in a spot like this. Your opponent basically let you a chance to go preflop all-in, and even tho this person is LAG, it's just beating 109s all the time, so this is a spot where he is actually doing this line for value. And he did.