$3 NLHE MTT: Should I have played this hand differently? JJ

[Axmanace]

Please help me with this hand - I didn't put him on low pair. Should I have?

pokerstars Hand #224406326994: Tournament #3074653911, $2.82+$0.18 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (100/200) - 2021/03/08 0:04:48 ET
Table '3074653911 9' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: iBlaxout (4180 in chips)
Seat 2: Vilrooo (28073 in chips)
Seat 3: gnick1013 (22560 in chips)
Seat 4: Scottvanmanen11 (11663 in chips)
Seat 5: axman_G (16700 in chips)
Seat 6: Nuts1567 (23552 in chips)
Seat 7: PartyMagician1 (29314 in chips)
Seat 8: Toncapone78 (6081 in chips)
Seat 9: MinusEB (56982 in chips)
iBlaxout: posts the ante 25
Vilrooo: posts the ante 25
gnick1013: posts the ante 25
Scottvanmanen11: posts the ante 25
axman_G: posts the ante 25
Nuts1567: posts the ante 25
PartyMagician1: posts the ante 25
Toncapone78: posts the ante 25
MinusEB: posts the ante 25
Toncapone78: posts small blind 100
MinusEB: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to axman_G [Jd Jh]
iBlaxout: folds
Vilrooo: folds
gnick1013: folds
Scottvanmanen11: folds
axman_G: raises 400 to 600
Nuts1567: folds
PartyMagician1: folds
Toncapone78: folds
MinusEB: raises 1525 to 2125
axman_G: raises 1875 to 4000
MinusEB: calls 1875
*** FLOP *** [6c 3h 2s]
MinusEB: checks
axman_G: bets 12675 and is all-in
MinusEB: calls 12675
*** TURN *** [6c 3h 2s] 4♣
*** RIVER *** [6c 3h 2s 4c] 9♦
axman_G said, "oh come on."
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MinusEB: shows [6s 6d] (three of a kind, Sixes)
axman_G: shows [Jd Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
MinusEB collected 33675 from pot
axman_G finished the tournament
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 33675 | Rake 0
Board [6c 3h 2s 4c 9d]
Seat 1: iBlaxout folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Vilrooo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: gnick1013 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Scottvanmanen11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: axman_G showed [Jd Jh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: Nuts1567 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: PartyMagician1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Toncapone78 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: MinusEB (big blind) showed [6s 6d] and won (33675) with three of a kind, Sixes

 

[fundiver199]

I put your hand history through the free hand converter here at CC to make it easier to read.


PokerStars, $2.82 + $0.18 - Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 (25 ante) - 9 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 4,180 (21 bb)
UTG+1: 28,073 (140 bb)
MP: 22,560 (113 bb)
MP+1: 11,663 (58 bb)
LP (Hero): 16,700 (84 bb)
CO: 23,552 (118 bb)
BU: 29,314 (147 bb)
SB: 6,081 (30 bb)
BB: 56,982 (285 bb)

Pre-Flop: (525) Hero is LP with J♦ J♥
4 players fold, Hero raises to 600, 3 players fold, BB 3-bets to 2,125, Hero 4-bets to 4,000, BB calls 1,875

Flop: (8,325) 6♣ 3♥ 2♠ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 12,675 (all-in), BB calls 12,675

Turn: (33,675) 4♣ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (33,675) 9♦ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 33,675

Showdown:
LP (Hero) shows J♦ J♥ (a pair of Jacks)
(equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 9%, River: 0%)

BB shows 6♠ 6♦ (three of a kind, Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 91%, River: 100%)

BB wins 33,675

 

[Axmanace]

I put your hand history through the free hand converter here at CC to make it easier to read.


PokerStars, $2.82 + $0.18 - Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 (25 ante) - 9 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 4,180 (21 bb)
UTG+1: 28,073 (140 bb)
MP: 22,560 (113 bb)
MP+1: 11,663 (58 bb)
LP (Hero): 16,700 (84 bb)
CO: 23,552 (118 bb)
BU: 29,314 (147 bb)
SB: 6,081 (30 bb)
BB: 56,982 (285 bb)

Pre-Flop: (525) Hero is LP with J♦ J♥
4 players fold, Hero raises to 600, 3 players fold, BB 3-bets to 2,125, Hero 4-bets to 4,000, BB calls 1,875

Flop: (8,325) 6♣ 3♥ 2♠ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 12,675 (all-in), BB calls 12,675

Turn: (33,675) 4♣ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (33,675) 9♦ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 33,675

Showdown:
LP (Hero) shows J♦ J♥ (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 9%, River: 0%)

BB shows 6♠ 6♦ (three of a kind, Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 91%, River: 100%)

BB wins 33,675

Thought I had done that. Must have pasted wrong sorry.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Standard open but I am not a big fan of your small 4-bet. He is never folding to this sizing, especially not when he have such a huge stack. So all, you are doing, is to reduce the SPR to a very small number and leave yourself less room to maneuver postflop and use your positional advantage. You also reopen the betting for him, and what is your plan, if he 5-bet jam? Are you ready to put in 84 bigs with JJ, or are you planning to 4-bet fold? In the latter case you open up a bluffing opportunity for him.

For all those reasons I think, JJ play better as a call, and with this specific stack size and against the chip leader I would not hate to play my entire range as a call and not even have a 4-betting range. By flatting here with everything you put some very strong hands in that flatting range and allow him to own himself postflop, when you call him down with AK on a A high board or with KK on a low board like this.

Flop
Pretty good flop for JJ obviously, but I dont think overbet jamming the flop is a good play. He have a lot of hands, that missed this flop, and the way to put those hands in a tough spot is to bet small like 25-30% pot. This allow him to make a light call with hands like AK or AQ, or maybe he even spass out and puts it in himself. When you jam it in, he is just going to fold all those hands and continue only with sets, if he have them, and some hands, you coolered, like 99 or TT.

Results
So he flopped a set on you, and whenever that happen, an overpair is usually always getting stacked in a 3-bet or 4-bet pot. This is just the way, the game works. So rather than focusing on the unfortunate result, you want to focus on, how you played the hand against his entire range. And I think, the small 4-bet preflop and the flop jam are both rather questionable plays.

 

[Axmanace]

Preflop
Standard open but I am not a big fan of your small 4-bet. He is never folding to this sizing, especially not when he have such a huge stack. So all, you are doing, is to reduce the SPR to a very small number and leave yourself less room to maneuver postflop and use your positional advantage. You also reopen the betting for him, and what is your plan, if he 5-bet jam? Are you ready to put in 84 bigs with JJ, or are you planning to 4-bet fold? In the latter case you open up a bluffing opportunity for him.

For all those reasons I think, JJ play better as a call, and with this specific stack size and against the chip leader I would not hate to play my entire range as a call and not even have a 4-betting range. By flatting here with everything you put some very strong hands in that flatting range and allow him to own himself postflop, when you call him down with AK on a A high board or with KK on a low board like this.

Flop
Pretty good flop for JJ obviously, but I dont think overbet jamming the flop is a good play. He have a lot of hands, that missed this flop, and the way to put those hands in a tough spot is to bet small like 25-30% pot. This allow him to make a light call with hands like AK or AQ, or maybe he even spass out and puts it in himself. When you jam it in, he is just going to fold all those hands and continue only with sets, if he have them, and some hands, you coolered, like 99 or TT.

Results
So he flopped a set on you, and whenever that happen, an overpair is usually always getting stacked in a 3-bet or 4-bet pot. This is just the way, the game works. So rather than focusing on the unfortunate result, you want to focus on, how you played the hand against his entire range. And I think, the small 4-bet preflop and the flop jam are both rather questionable plays.

The main reason for the all In was I felt like a smaller raise would have pot committed me anyways?

Additionally I didn’t want him to call with worse hands like AX and hit an ace. (Increased likelihood due to his big stack size).

Are those reasonings good enough to make sense? Or still a mistake?

I agree with the 4 bet size - what size should I have made it? I thought doubling the bet was substantial enough.

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, I agree in the large part with fundiver. I also think that better call 3bet pre flop with pocket jj than playing 4bet. I don't go allin with pocket JJ for 84bb, because we are too deep. Yeah, this time your opponent had lucky that he hit the set on the flop. With pocket JJ I would respect 3bet pre flop from your opponent. I sometimes see in his range QQ+ so I think that we should careful on this flop. I prefer playing by check/call on the flop, on the turn and on the river. I prefer pot control against aggressor pre flop, because I'm not sure the strenght of pocket JJ. GL

 

[fundiver199]

The main reason for the all In was I felt like a smaller raise would have pot committed me anyways?

You can bet small and still get away from a hand like AK, if he check-jam. But its true, there is limited room to maneuver, when the SPR is just a bit over 1. Which is why, I dont love the 4-bet so much.

Additionally I didn’t want him to call with worse hands like AX and hit an ace. (Increased likelihood due to his big stack size).

This is a flawed way of thinking about poker. We make money, when our opponents make mistakes. For that reason we want to bet enough, that they are typically getting bad odds to draw, if they call with a worse hand. But we dont want to bet so large, that they almost always make the correct decision and fold a worse hand. AK only has 6 outs, so if you bet even 25% pot, he is not getting the right odds to draw, when he is only going to get a single card most of the time. And indusing him to make a small calling mistake with AK is better than almost forcing him to play perfect by folding.

I agree with the 4 bet size - what size should I have made it? I thought doubling the bet was substantial enough.

I think, you should have just called the 3-bet. The issue here is stack sizes. If stacks were shorter like 50BB, you can just 4-bet jam, and against a wide 3-betting range this is certainly profitable. If on the other hand stacks were deeper like 100+BB, you can 4-bet to a size, which gives him bad odds to call and also gives him a bad risk-reward to 5-bet jam.

However with this particular stack size there is no really good 4-bet size, so I would probably only 4-bet AA and KK here to be honest with you. And if you want to play in a more balanced way, then call those hands as well as a trap. ICM is an important part of tournament poker, and you dont always have to take the high variance route and reraise people. You especially dont have to always do it against a chipleader like this, because then all the pressure is going to be on you rather than him.

 

[300HPGOD]

I know this was mentioned by fundiver in a response but want to reiterate it a bit. When you bet that large on the flop, what are you trying to accomplish? I cant think of a hand that beats us that is folding. Then I tried to think of hands that we beat that would still call. I cant think of any since there would be no combo draws with this board unless you count backdoors. 1010 and 99 are even folding which is a disaster for us. I like betting smaller with the intention of checking the turn to either bluff catch or just jamming the turn depending on the turn card. I am probably leaning towards the jamming route but that would depend on the card and what I know about the opponent. Betting as large as you did lets the villain off the hook. If they were bluffing pre then they just walk away easy. If they have an overpair to the board but still somewhat weak (77,88,99) to a 4 bet then they are also walking away easy.

I also agree with others on the 4 bet. No reason to 4 bet that small. If you want to 4 bet (which I wouldnt here) it is much better to 4 bet larger than smaller as you did since you will at least get some folds out of it and if you get AQ off to fold there it isnt a bad play (not sure AQ off folds but...)

 

[Axmanace]

I know this was mentioned by fundiver in a response but want to reiterate it a bit. When you bet that large on the flop, what are you trying to accomplish? I cant think of a hand that beats us that is folding. Then I tried to think of hands that we beat that would still call. I cant think of any since there would be no combo draws with this board unless you count backdoors. 1010 and 99 are even folding which is a disaster for us. I like betting smaller with the intention of checking the turn to either bluff catch or just jamming the turn depending on the turn card. I am probably leaning towards the jamming route but that would depend on the card and what I know about the opponent. Betting as large as you did lets the villain off the hook. If they were bluffing pre then they just walk away easy. If they have an overpair to the board but still somewhat weak (77,88,99) to a 4 bet then they are also walking away easy.

I also agree with others on the 4 bet. No reason to 4 bet that small. If you want to 4 bet (which I wouldnt here) it is much better to 4 bet larger than smaller as you did since you will at least get some folds out of it and if you get AQ off to fold there it isnt a bad play (not sure AQ off folds but...)

I thought I had the better hand and I didn't want him calling with AQ+.

Yea. I was using incorrect logic. I was kind of paranoid... I originally wanted to bet half-pot but was super paranoid worst hands would call (AK, AQ, Top pair, etc.) and then make their hand later.

I thought I had the best hand at this point and I didn't want someone making the mistake of calling and getting lucky.

I didn't put him on that low of a pair due to the 4-bet pre-flop. Figured he had AK, or AQ.

 

[hohol97]

Your opponents was really crazy fish. 3bet with 66 from bb and call4bet, so I guess after flop you could not save yourself. But I am not sure about preflop, usually players from bb 3bet very strong hand, and I probably just call 3bet in this huge stacks( if you do not know that you opponent is very aggressive).

 

[Axmanace]

Your opponents was really crazy fish. 3bet with 66 from bb and call4bet, so I guess after flop you could not save yourself. But I am not sure about preflop, usually players from bb 3bet very strong hand, and I probably just call 3bet in this huge stacks( if you do not know that you opponent is very aggressive).

Interesting. I looked him up on poker shark stats and he actually had a 80 rating.
Maybe he was just playing super fishy due to the effective stack size being crazy high?

But that was my original view point.
Going all in was still a mistake as he could have just easily as had QQ+ with the calling of the 4-bet.

But I was hoping he had AK/AQ with it.

 

[fundiver199]

Interesting. I looked him up on poker shark stats and he actually had a 80 rating. Maybe he was just playing super fishy due to the effective stack size being crazy high?

His 3-bet with 66 is rather aggro, but its certainly not "super fishy". Its a play, you can mix in now and then, and especially in a situation like this, where you have a huge chip lead and can apply a lot of pressure to other players. In fact this is, what you are supposed to do, and good tournament players understand that. Calling the 4-bet is a little loose, but you gave him amazing odds, and maybe he felt, he could afford to gamble a little and perhaps try to outplay you after the flop even out of position with a pretty bad hand.

Also if he was a competent player, this just highlight the point made by 300HPGOD, that he might not even continue with TT or 99, when you jam the flop. I have certainly folded small overpairs many times in 3-bet or 4-bet pots, if I felt, there was a very solid chance the preflop 3-bettor or 4-better had a better overpair. I would probably feel obliged to pay with QQ though, so you migth well have created a situation, where you got anything worse than your hand to fold and anything better to call, which is an absolute disaster.

 

[Axmanace]

His 3-bet with 66 is rather aggro, but its certainly not "super fishy". Its a play, you can mix in now and then, and especially in a situation like this, where you have a huge chip lead and can apply a lot of pressure to other players. In fact this is, what you are supposed to do, and good tournament players understand that. Calling the 4-bet is a little loose, but you gave him amazing odds, and maybe he felt, he could afford to gamble a little and perhaps try to outplay you after the flop even out of position with a pretty bad hand.

Also if he was a competent player, this just highlight the point made by 300HPGOD, that he might not even continue with TT or 99, when you jam the flop. I have certainly folded small overpairs many times in 3-bet or 4-bet pots, if I felt, there was a very solid chance the preflop 3-bettor or 4-better had a better overpair. I would probably feel obliged to pay with QQ though, so you migth well have created a situation, where you got anything worse than your hand to fold and anything better to call, which is an absolute disaster.

What bet-size would have been more appropriate in that situation, assuming I still 4-bet?

That makes sense with regards to post flop play.
Although I probably still wasn’t getting away from that hand... (unless I put him on QQ+) I should have played less aggressively post flop.

It was an emotional tilt play in retrospect.
(Had lost a couple earlier big pots due to junk calling my better hands and hitting after the flop).

 

[fundiver199]

What bet-size would have been more appropriate in that situation, assuming I still 4-bet?

A little over 2 times his bet so maybe 4.500 chips. If you go much larger than that, you start to commit yourself to the pot, which mean, its becomes totally obvious, you can never have a bluff.

It was an emotional tilt play in retrospect. (Had lost a couple earlier big pots due to junk calling my better hands and hitting after the flop).

This is a very common form of tilt, and I have certainly been there myself a number of times. Recognizing the issue is the first big step towards fixing it

 

[Axmanace]

A little over 2 times his bet so maybe 4.500 chips. If you go much larger than that, you start to commit yourself to the pot, which mean, its becomes totally obvious, you can never have a bluff.




This is a very common form of tilt, and I have certainly been there myself a number of times. Recognizing the issue is the first big step towards fixing it

Yep thank you for the perspective!

Should have bet more conservatively post flop and just called the 3-bet.

Though honestly I think the hand would have still resulted in the same outcome - especially given no over-pair popped up which would make it very difficult to fold (you shouldn’t be 3 betting A4/A5 from UTG).

 

[kkonicke]

Your opponents was really crazy fish. 3bet with 66 from bb and call4bet, so I guess after flop you could not save yourself. But I am not sure about preflop, usually players from bb 3bet very strong hand, and I probably just call 3bet in this huge stacks( if you do not know that you opponent is very aggressive).

I don't think this play with 66 is THAT crazy, it's aggressive sure but I think it's a good play considering all factors. The open came from late position and he's the chip leader. A late position raise range is wider than an early position raise range, you could have a range of suited connectors and KT/KJ/Ax suited stuff that probably won't continue for that big of a 3 bet. He might even fold out a couple better pairs here if LP raiser was nitty. And then going to flop he has position, chip lead, and control. He's probably going to win this pot on the flop or turn against most of your calling range even without hitting a 6.

 

[kkonicke]

Yep thank you for the perspective!

Should have bet more conservatively post flop and just called the 3-bet.

Though honestly I think the hand would have still resulted in the same outcome - especially given no over-pair popped up which would make it very difficult to fold (you shouldn’t be 3 betting A4/A5 from UTG).

Yeah this is a bit of a yikes flop for you. I don't think I'm folding here very often considering the action.

 

[Axmanace]

I don't think this play with 66 is THAT crazy, it's aggressive sure but I think it's a good play considering all factors. The open came from late position and he's the chip leader. A late position raise range is wider than an early position raise range, you could have a range of suited connectors and KT/KJ/Ax suited stuff that probably won't continue for that big of a 3 bet. He might even fold out a couple better pairs here if LP raiser was nitty. And then going to flop he has position, chip lead, and control. He's probably going to win this pot on the flop or turn against most of your calling range even without hitting a 6.

You have to think though -
Late - position 4 bet should indicate much stronger hand then the typical late position ranges.

The crazy part wasn’t so much the raise - it was raising into calling a 4 bet.

That will almost never pay off with low pair unless you get lucky and hit your set.

 

[kkonicke]

You have to think though -
Late - position 4 bet should indicate much stronger hand then the typical late position ranges.

The crazy part wasn’t so much the raise - it was raising into calling a 4 bet.

That will almost never pay off with low pair unless you get lucky and hit your set.

That's fair. I meant the 3bet wasn't overly aggressive. I personally wouldn't play the 3brt so it's hard for me to mentally consider calling the 4bet, but I guess that probably should be a fold. He may have folded to a larger 4 bet. Hard to say.

 

[p00nEsBakk]

Please help me with this hand - I didn't put him on low pair. Should I have?

PokerStars Hand #224406326994: Tournament #3074653911, $2.82+$0.18 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (100/200) - 2021/03/08 0:04:48 ET
Table '3074653911 9' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: iBlaxout (4180 in chips)
Seat 2: Vilrooo (28073 in chips)
Seat 3: gnick1013 (22560 in chips)
Seat 4: Scottvanmanen11 (11663 in chips)
Seat 5: axman_G (16700 in chips)
Seat 6: Nuts1567 (23552 in chips)
Seat 7: PartyMagician1 (29314 in chips)
Seat 8: Toncapone78 (6081 in chips)
Seat 9: MinusEB (56982 in chips)
iBlaxout: posts the ante 25
Vilrooo: posts the ante 25
gnick1013: posts the ante 25
Scottvanmanen11: posts the ante 25
axman_G: posts the ante 25
Nuts1567: posts the ante 25
PartyMagician1: posts the ante 25
Toncapone78: posts the ante 25
MinusEB: posts the ante 25
Toncapone78: posts small blind 100
MinusEB: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to axman_G [Jd Jh]
iBlaxout: folds
Vilrooo: folds
gnick1013: folds
Scottvanmanen11: folds
axman_G: raises 400 to 600
Nuts1567: folds
PartyMagician1: folds
Toncapone78: folds
MinusEB: raises 1525 to 2125
axman_G: raises 1875 to 4000
MinusEB: calls 1875
*** FLOP *** [6c 3h 2s]
MinusEB: checks
axman_G: bets 12675 and is all-in
MinusEB: calls 12675
*** TURN *** [6c 3h 2s] 4♣
*** RIVER *** [6c 3h 2s 4c] 9♦
axman_G said, "oh come on."
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MinusEB: shows [6s 6d] (three of a kind, Sixes)
axman_G: shows [Jd Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
MinusEB collected 33675 from pot
axman_G finished the tournament
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 33675 | Rake 0
Board [6c 3h 2s 4c 9d]
Seat 1: iBlaxout folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Vilrooo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: gnick1013 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Scottvanmanen11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: axman_G showed [Jd Jh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: Nuts1567 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: PartyMagician1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Toncapone78 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: MinusEB (big blind) showed [6s 6d] and won (33675) with three of a kind, Sixes

———————————
I have found and still find myself in these situations. He checks, We Push, Get Instant Called, Tourney Over. If you find yourself in a similar situation, you will, throwing out a 4-5xbb bet will give you the information you need to make a better judgment. If he calls, red flag. If he pushes over you, red flag. You’ll find yourself with the same information (shit im beat) without risking too much, or your tournament life.