$3.50 NLHE STT Turbo: $3,50 NLHE STT Turbo: Should I put this tight villain on T with a raise PF?

[xCEZRx]

$3.50 NLHE STT Turbo: $3,50 NLHE STT Turbo: Should I put this tight villain on T with a raise PF?

poker stars $3.16+$0.34 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds + t4 - 8 players -

Hero (BB): t1482 M = 19.25
UTG: t3205 M = 41.62
UTG+1: t1402 M = 18.21
MP1: t1372 M = 17.82
MP2: t1496 M = 19.43
CO: t1476 M = 19.17
BTN: t1491 M = 19.36
SB: t1576 M = 20.47

Pre Flop: (t77) Hero is BB with 9s 9h
4 folds, CO calls t30, BTN raises to t90, 1 fold, Hero calls t60, 1 fold

Flop: (t257) 3d 5d Th (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets t128, Hero raises to t270, BTN calls t142

Turn: (t797) 4s (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets t540, Hero raises to t1118 all in, BTN calls t578

River: (t3033) 4h (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t3033
Hero shows 9s 9h (two pair, Nines and Fours)
BTN shows Ts Qc (two pair, Tens and Fours)
BTN wins t3033

 

[Ambur]

Raise pre to balance positional disadvantage+possible to narrow the field. imo

How you know villain is tight?

As played on turn: i think hero overplays and should fold instead of going AI! Villain who has already made 2/3 pot size bet (on turn, commitive bet) almost never bluf there (villain got at least Tx or better unlees he/she has really good read on you which is not the case probably)! Or which kind of hand range you possible but tight villain (as you said) on turn who has shown strenght preflop+postflop! Well tight villain overall hand range could be somehow wider on preflop since he/she has positional advantage. But there is no reason to think that on turn villain is barreling with air! imo

And i do not want to comment flop, since most of the time i would raise preflop. But as played: i would x% of time just call on flop and reevaluate situation on turn.

 

[xCEZRx]

Raise pre to balance positional disadvantage+possible to narrow the field. imo

How you know villain is tight?

As played on turn: i think hero overplays and should fold instead of going AI! Villain who has already made 2/3 pot size bet (on turn, commitive bet) almost never bluf there (villain got at least Tx or better unlees he/she has really good read on you which is not the case probably)! Or which kind of hand range you possible but tight villain (as you said) on turn who has shown strenght preflop+postflop! Well tight villain overall hand range could be somehow wider on preflop since he/she has positional advantage. But there is no reason to think that on turn villain is barreling with air! imo

And i do not want to comment flop, since most of the time i would raise preflop. But as played: i would x% of time just call on flop and reevaluate situation on turn.

Thank you for your explanation, I should probably add that I know that I did not play this hand correctly but it was an interesting hand for getting some tips on how to put players on ranges in this spot, as for your question how do I know he is tight I have about 1.5k hands with him and his PFR in late position is 9

 

[PBG789]

Pre-flop - I would immediately disregard the CO limp so what you have is essentially a button raise from the villain (which should be a bit higher to deal with the limper). Hero should be raising here as villain will have very wide range.

Flop - as played this should simply be a check call. What is hero planning when he check raises? Villain is unlikely to fold as they have now shown strength twice and, even if they are on a diamond draw for example, the raise is so small that they are priced in to call with pretty much anything.

Turn - when villain shows strength for the third time in the hand it is time to fold. As played however hero took betting lead on the flop and then immediately gave it up. If you are going to check raise the flop then you need to continue the story on the turn. It may not have worked as villain has ruled out overpairs for hero (no pre-flop raise) and, therefore, probably thinks the only hands you have that beat him are AT and KT with a low set a remote possibility BUT by failing to follow through you have basically then told him that you can't beat Tx. The second check raise is absolutely pointless as villain is never folding at this stage and there is probably about a 90% chance that he has Tx given the way he has played the hand.

Summary hero should have raised pre-flop but then overplays hand on flop and turn.

 

[No Brainer]

Do we really need to 3 bet pre? It's early on in the tournament, we are oop in a bloated pot with what will usually be second pair. Also, if he is opening only 9 percent of hands he is going to call the 3 bet with almost his entire opening range.

On the flop I don't see any reason to raise the bet, we basically try to turn our hand into a bluff even though we will be ahead here most of the time. I would personally check call flop and turn then if villain is still firing half pot+ bets at us on the river just give it up, there is no need to lose half your chips here with second pair.

 

[baxre]

I would not to raise flop. Why you rase flop like this ?

 

[Ambur]

Do we really need to 3 bet pre? It's early on in the tournament, we are oop in a bloated pot with what will usually be second pair. Also, if he is opening only 9 percent of hands he is going to call the 3 bet with almost his entire opening range.

I will add some further thought which is why my first choice on preflop is to raise and second choice is to fold and call is my last option actually.

According to preflop action 2 active player's CO+BTN (late position preflop raise 9% with decent sample, pretty relevant info and we do not know hero image, which is also really important)+ we do not know does BTN plays linear hand range on late position or is he/she creative tight player!

Hero has preflop made hand (99), pretty much bottom preflop made hand to protect BB vs tight opponent. Since this is early stage and stack are deep (~50 bb). BTN made somehow weak opening according to stack sizes preflop. opening only 3bb (this bet is not for value, this bet is made to gain pot control in position mostly)+knowing there is 2 active player's left to act+CO limper.

Okei lets assume hero decide to call preflop, on flop we are facing overcards 81% of the time+vs 2 possible opponents (BTN+CO) and hero is out of position (this is really hard to play 99 OOP). Not to mentioned we have no info about CO.

Based on preflop action BTN seems quite weak tight (said above why i think so) and CO is just some limper with really wide range usually. Knowing this we could basically rule out a lot of hands in tight player range and leaving only his very bottom opening range assuming we decide to raise preflop. In this situation i almost always make it at least t270 up to t360. We defend our made hand+possible narrow the field (our hand does not play well multiway)+hero need to balance positional disadvantage (said above)+there is possiblity that we take the pot down right now! imo

Ofcourse everybody choice how they choose to play! But for me best play here is to raise preflop.

 

[hffjd2000]

Too loose, too aggressive I think.

The problem is, the stack is small for any play at all.

 

[No Brainer]

I will add some further thought which is why my first choice on preflop is to raise and second choice is to fold and call is my last option actually.

According to preflop action 2 active player's CO+BTN (late position preflop raise 9% with decent sample, pretty relevant info and we do not know hero image, which is also really important)+ we do not know does BTN plays linear hand range on late position or is he/she creative tight player!

Hero has preflop made hand (99), pretty much bottom preflop made hand to protect BB vs tight opponent. Since this is early stage and stack are deep (~50 bb). BTN made somehow weak opening according to stack sizes preflop. opening only 3bb (this bet is not for value, this bet is made to gain pot control in position mostly)+knowing there is 2 active player's left to act+CO limper.

Okei lets assume hero decide to call preflop, on flop we are facing overcards 81% of the time+vs 2 possible opponents (BTN+CO) and hero is out of position (this is really hard to play 99 OOP). Not to mentioned we have no info about CO.

Based on preflop action BTN seems quite weak tight (said above why i think so) and CO is just some limper with really wide range usually. Knowing this we could basically rule out a lot of hands in tight player range and leaving only his very bottom opening range assuming we decide to raise preflop. In this situation i almost always make it at least t270 up to t360. We defend our made hand+possible narrow the field (our hand does not play well multiway)+hero need to balance positional disadvantage (said above)+there is possiblity that we take the pot down right now! imo

Ofcourse everybody choice how they choose to play! But for me best play here is to raise preflop.

Note the bolded parts of the quoted post.

Without reads I don't think we can just assume that BTN is not raising for valuer due to his raise size. I would happily raise this size with my whole range and don't stick to any "standard" sizing.

If his opening range is 9 percent how much of that do you think he will fold to a 3 bet from a blind? I think he is going to 4 bet or call most of it.

Looking forward to postflop when we 3 bet and get a caller. The pot will be about 600 and we have ~1200 left behind. What's the plan when these overcards hit? Most of the overcards are in his 3 bet calling range so do we just give up?

When you say it leaves only the bottom of his opening range do you think he is going to 4 bet the majority of his opening range?

 

[xCEZRx]

After reading all of your opinions I realized that we could actually put our Villian on any Pocket Pair in this spot, he obviously has position and with a limp ahead of him he could be trying to bloat the pot for when he hits a set so this flop actualy hit him hard.

 

[Ambur]

Note the bolded parts of the quoted post.

Without reads I don't think we can just assume that BTN is not raising for valuer due to his raise size. I would happily raise this size with my whole range and don't stick to any "standard" sizing.

If his opening range is 9 percent how much of that do you think he will fold to a 3 bet from a blind? I think he is going to 4 bet or call most of it.

Looking forward to postflop when we 3 bet and get a caller. The pot will be about 600 and we have ~1200 left behind. What's the plan when these overcards hit? Most of the overcards are in his 3 bet calling range so do we just give up?

When you say it leaves only the bottom of his opening range do you think he is going to 4 bet the majority of his opening range?

How could you possible say that we do not have any read, we have pretty decent size on villain ~1,5k sample which show us that he is opening on late position 9%. Only thing which we does not know (does villain plays linear range late position+early stage or more creative range, since i know many good tight players plays early stage on position creative). Ofcourse can not ignore hero image (how villain sees hero), since hero has 1,5k sample it means villain has approximately the same sample on hero and this can affect the decision.

In general opening size should be more then 3bb, since there is 1 limper+2 active players+ante. Therefore this opening is weak from tight player part. Basically villain took the pot control and assuming to have at least one caller not a 3bet! Which reflect villain true hand range pretty clear, (villain got bottom of his range most of the time+creative range) if villain decide to call. Villain weak opening screams to see cheap flop. And when villain really does have good preflop value hand he/she will 4bet (but this is really small part of possible range)! And if villain really does have bottom range or creative opening range he/she might will just fold or call it! And if he does just call villain has most likely postflop value hands (connectors, mid high cards etc rarely his top range).

"Looking forward to postflop when we 3 bet and get a caller. The pot will be about 600 and we have ~1200 left behind. What's the plan when these overcards hit? Most of the overcards are in his 3 bet calling range so do we just give up? "

It is really hard for me to answer, since the decision is strongly correlated with hero image+flop texture! All we know that villain most likely range is now overcards, which means we should give up the hand if situation is going to be hot! But note that if villain is calling (we know now his opening range is 2 high cards most likely), this will be negative expectation for villain overall since hero have pretty clearly defined her/his hand strenght on preflop and villain still decide to call!

If you think about what villain thinks when he/she facing against strong 3bet preflop, what kind of hand range could possible villain but BB if we can assume that hero is solid player (i do not know nothing about hero just assuming)? (hero hand range is more polarized then villain range). It makes even harder villain to continue very bottom of his preflop opening range which he/she is representing preflop. imo

"When you say it leaves only the bottom of his opening range do you think he is going to 4 bet the majority of his opening range?"

Most likely villain does not 4bet in this situation assuming he is solid tight player and knows what he/she doing! imo

Summary: On preflop: 3bet or fold (depends on villain), but calling OOP (vs ~9% range)+possible multiway is suicide for weak made preflop hand, since hero basically set mining that point and we can not assume that implied odds are there (villain is tight - we do not have more info). imo

 

[No Brainer]

How could you possible say that we do not have any read, we have pretty decent size on villain ~1,5k sample which show us that he is opening on late position 9%. Only thing which we does not know (does villain plays linear range late position+early stage or more creative range, since i know many good tight players plays early stage on position creative). Ofcourse can not ignore hero image (how villain sees hero), since hero has 1,5k sample it means villain has approximately the same sample on hero and this can affect the decision.

In general opening size should be more then 3bb, since there is 1 limper+2 active players+ante. Therefore this opening is weak from tight player part. Basically villain took the pot control and assuming to have at least one caller not a 3bet! Which reflect villain true hand range pretty clear, (villain got bottom of his range most of the time+creative range) if villain decide to call. Villain weak opening screams to see cheap flop. And when villain really does have good preflop value hand he/she will 4bet (but this is really small part of possible range)! And if villain really does have bottom range or creative opening range he/she might will just fold or call it! And if he does just call villain has most likely postflop value hands (connectors, mid high cards etc rarely his top range).

What I meant was a specific read on villains bet sizing to tell us if he is raising for value or to steal the blinds. When you say in general the raise size should be a certain amount do you have any reason as to why it should be? As said, if I am villain in this spot my raise would be 3x or even 2.5x with my entire range, not just if I want to steal the blinds.

 

[Ambur]

What I meant was a specific read on villains bet sizing to tell us if he is raising for value or to steal the blinds. When you say in general the raise size should be a certain amount do you have any reason as to why it should be? As said, if I am villain in this spot my raise would be 3x or even 2.5x with my entire range, not just if I want to steal the blinds.

I do not need any specific read on villain to analyze the situation (i have all information which i need to make most profitable decision), since i almost automatically raise preflop on this spot vs weak tight tendencies villain+1 limper, even vs solid tight i will x% time 3bet instead of fold in this spot (since i have my reasons to think villain range could be wider then usually, explained above). And if you want to have some specific read ask OP. OP have decent sample, therefore should have some specific reads if it does help you somehow. imo

As i already said: for me villain 3x opening is weak on this situation where 2 active players left+1 limper+ante! If i would be BB i get 2 good odds to play really wide range even if i am OOP (that is what villain possible wants)! 99 is definetly hand where i will defend vs tight player who opens on position that small! I 3bet because i want villain to define his/hers hand range+for protection+narrow the field+give villain second chance to protect whatever he/she representing+balancing OOP disadvantige+for value. imo

But one thing is clear for me calling preflop on this spot with very bottom preflop value hand (this is pretty much bottom preflop value hand where i will defend x% of time, depends on villain) is terrible and i do not recommend it to nobody! Since early stage every chip has valueable then later stages. imo

 

[WiZZiM]

not a huge fan of overplaying these PP early in STT. if this is an MTT go for it.

the reason why raising in these spots is typically bad is that the button will rarely fold to our 3bet preflop. Now if he rarely folds, we are just bloating the pot for ourselves OOP with a hand that will be facing overcards a huge % of the time. We will have the initiative, but it's going to be for a big pot OOP with a relatively weak hand for this early in the SNG.

I'm not saying raising is bad, but i think calling can be better in some cases. We can make a profit on this hand by merely calling to a flop with likely 2 other players and trying to flop a set. And on decent boards trying to get to showdown cheaply/pick of bluffs.

I think anything else is ignoring the point of SNGs which is to set ourselves up for a cash, winning more chips in this spot by being more aggressive has the downside of also losing a lot more chips, so limiting the variance in these early game spots which will not affect our ROI hugely is a really good idea in general.