$3.40 NLHE STT: TT ITM pre

F

FastandFurious

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poker stars $3.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t100/t200 Blinds + t25 - 3 players - View hand 1247481
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): t6445 M = 17.19
BTN: t752 M = 2.01
SB: t6303 M = 16.81

Pre Flop: (t375) Hero is BB with T :club: T :spade:
1 fold, SB raises to t1400, Hero calls t1200

Flop: (t2875) A :heart: A :spade: 6 :spade: (2 players)
SB bets t1100, Hero calls t1100

Turn: (t5075) K :heart: (2 players)
SB bets t1500, Hero folds

SB: VPIP:35 PRF:15 AF:inf hands:43
Steal: 15% SB steal:27%

Would u shove pre? as played ok post?
 
Pascal-lf

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Shove or fold pre, don't flat
 
jbbb

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7xBB raise by SB. wth. He can't really call without a decent hand as BTN is so short, so i'd shove going for 1st. TT is monster 3handed, if you're beat, so be it. Take advantage of his shit PFR and get them extra chips :)
 
OzExorcist

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Shove preflop. Shove the flop as played. I'm really not sure what to make of villain's screwy bet sizing but I think we still have the best hand most of the time.
 
BrentD22

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Poker Stars $3.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t100/t200 Blinds + t25 - 3 players - View hand 1247481
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): t6445 M = 17.19
BTN: t752 M = 2.01
SB: t6303 M = 16.81

Pre Flop: (t375) Hero is BB with T <font color='black'>♣</font> T <font color='black'>♠</font>
1 fold, SB raises to t1400, Hero calls t1200

Flop: (t2875) A <font color='red'>♥</font> A <font color='black'>♠</font> 6 <font color='black'>♠</font> (2 players)
SB bets t1100, Hero calls t1100

Turn: (t5075) K <font color='red'>♥</font> (2 players)
SB bets t1500, Hero folds

SB: VPIP:35 PRF:15 AF:inf Hands:43
Steal: 15% SB steal:27%

Would u shove pre? as played ok post?

I am shoving pre here...
 
BrentD22

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The 4 and the 1 is next to each other - maybe miss click?
 
cjatud2012

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Calling is the worst option here, that leaves us with shove or fold. So what kind of range is the SB raising here? A raise/fold line would be pretty awful imo - if villain is bad enough to be doing that, then obviously we should shove. However in my experience this is is a good but not great hand, like AJ+, 77-JJ - QQ-AA probably isn't raising 7bb's, they'd want more action. The problem with that range is he isn't folding that much to a shove, so we have to treat his raise like his shove. Against that range we're 60/40. The question is, with the BTN having almost no equity in the tournament, do we risk a ton of equity win a 60/40 edge? My instinct is to say no, but we should look at the math. This is where I'm kind of confused though, and I'm not sure which math is right, but I'm gonna try to look at it two ways.

So using a 50/30/20 distribution, the equity distribution is ~39/39/22 (we probably actually have more than this, because ICM overvalues short-stacks), and if we win the heads-up, our equity is 49% and the shorty's is 31% (again, we probably have more than that). You may notice that this doesn't add up to 100% - the reason is the guy in third accounts for 20% of the prize pool. This also means that if we lose, our equity is not zero - rather, it's 20%. So 60% of the time, we have 49% equity, and 40% of the time, we have 20% equity. On average then, this move has a value of 37.5% equity, which is a little less than the 39% we would have if we just folded our hand.

Here's the other way to look at it - sixty percent of the prize-pool has already been awarded (20% guaranteed to each person), so that means 40% of the prize pool is left to be awarded. When the next person gets KO'd, 20% more of the prize pool will be given out (10% more guaranteed to the two remaining players). So I believe this makes our model 75/25 now, which means we have ~47% of the equity. Then, if we win this, we get heads-up, and now we're playing for 100% of the remaining prize pool, so our equity when we win is going to be the amount of the total chips we have, or about 95%. So we're risking 47% to win another 48% (95-47). So we're basically getting 1:1 pot odds, but our win odds are 2:3, so that makes it a clear shove, and we should be shoving with 99+ and AK.

So I have no idea which way is right (or if either of them are right :eek:), but one way tells us its a fold and one says it's a shove.
 
cjatud2012

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Also - unsurprisingly (at least imo) SNGWiz says this is a fold with this range.

Not even considering the math, it just doesn't make sense to risk this much equity with a guy with such a short stack remaining.
 
Pascal-lf

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SNGWiz says everything is a fold
 
cjatud2012

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One more way to look at it:

Let's say we always win the STT if we win at showdown against the other big-stack. So 40% of the time (amount of time we lose, from above) we win 3)% of the prize-pool, and 60% of the time we win 50%.

.4*20 + .6*50 = 38

So now if we assume we never finish worse than 2nd, how often do we need to win the heads-up? If x is the percentage of the time we take first:

(1-x)*30 + x*50 = 38
30 - 30x + 50x = 38
20x = 38 - 30 = 8
x = 8/20 = 40%

So if we feel we can win the heads-up more than 40% of the time, then we are better off waiting here.
 
jbbb

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Calling is the worst option here, that leaves us with shove or fold. So what kind of range is the SB raising here? A raise/fold line would be pretty awful imo - if villain is bad enough to be doing that, then obviously we should shove. However in my experience this is is a good but not great hand, like AJ+, 77-JJ - QQ-AA probably isn't raising 7bb's, they'd want more action. The problem with that range is he isn't folding that much to a shove, so we have to treat his raise like his shove. Against that range we're 60/40. The question is, with the BTN having almost no equity in the tournament, do we risk a ton of equity win a 60/40 edge? My instinct is to say no, but we should look at the math. This is where I'm kind of confused though, and I'm not sure which math is right, but I'm gonna try to look at it two ways.

So using a 50/30/20 distribution, the equity distribution is ~39/39/22 (we probably actually have more than this, because ICM overvalues short-stacks), and if we win the heads-up, our equity is 49% and the shorty's is 31% (again, we probably have more than that). You may notice that this doesn't add up to 100% - the reason is the guy in third accounts for 20% of the prize pool. This also means that if we lose, our equity is not zero - rather, it's 20%. So 60% of the time, we have 49% equity, and 40% of the time, we have 20% equity. On average then, this move has a value of 37.5% equity, which is a little less than the 39% we would have if we just folded our hand.

Here's the other way to look at it - sixty percent of the prize-pool has already been awarded (20% guaranteed to each person), so that means 40% of the prize pool is left to be awarded. When the next person gets KO'd, 20% more of the prize pool will be given out (10% more guaranteed to the two remaining players). So I believe this makes our model 75/25 now, which means we have ~47% of the equity. Then, if we win this, we get heads-up, and now we're playing for 100% of the remaining prize pool, so our equity when we win is going to be the amount of the total chips we have, or about 95%. So we're risking 47% to win another 48% (95-47). So we're basically getting 1:1 pot odds, but our win odds are 2:3, so that makes it a clear shove, and we should be shoving with 99+ and AK.

So I have no idea which way is right (or if either of them are right :eek:), but one way tells us its a fold and one says it's a shove.

tl;dr. But from villians bet sizing I think we're well ahead of his range at worst we're flipping. I think we still got fold equity because villian seems like a bad player, he'd still have 5k behind if he folded. But as you say, QQ+ wants more action and this range is indicitive of a player who doesn't want a flop but thinks they have the best hand now i.e 66-99.
Plus, our goal is to play for 1st now. The bubble has broken so we have to be aggressive to make 1st.
 
cjatud2012

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tl;dr. But from villians bet sizing I think we're well ahead of his range at worst we're flipping. I think we still got fold equity because villian seems like a bad player, he'd still have 5k behind if he folded. But as you say, QQ+ wants more action and this range is indicitive of a player who doesn't want a flop but thinks they have the best hand now i.e 66-99.
Plus, our goal is to play for 1st now. The bubble has broken so we have to be aggressive to make 1st.

Not true when BTN has virtually no equity in the tournament.
 
Pascal-lf

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Plus, our goal is to play for 1st now. The bubble has broken so we have to be aggressive to make 1st.

Something I learnt recently - your goal is to make as much money as possible, and maximise your hourly. So while of course you are going for 1st, you also need to be aware of the effect the button could have on ICM, etc
 
jbbb

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ok although I disagree that you should fold, how about if the raise was to 600/400 or if you had him covered by 800 chips (so if you lost you'd be equal with the shorty).
Both situations are shove right?
 
cjatud2012

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Yeah that's a ton different, because then it looks like he might fold to a shove.
 
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