$3.30 NLHE STT: KK UTG against loose caller, what would you do on this board?

[Propane Goat]

Game: $3.30 triple-up, 5 players remaining.

Villain has been a very loose caller pre-flop and has also been limping in a lot. I saw him check-raise from the blinds post-flop a number of times during early levels. He had also shoved into pre-flop raiser a few times after check-calling all the way to the river. I don't have a HUD but I would say his VPIP was probably around 70%. He had been getting lucky on the hands that went to showdown, he knocked out two by hitting the board with weaker cards.

Blinds are $0/$50/$100.

Hero ($2646) is UTG with .

Hero raises to $300.

Folds to villain ($4190) on button, villain calls.

SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: . Pot size = $750.

Hero bets $375.

Villain calls.

Turn: . Pot size = $1500.

Hero bets $750.

Villain calls.

River: .

$1221 left, pot size = $3000. What would you do here? Would you go all-in on the river on this board? Should I have bet bigger on the flop?

Your thoughts appreciated.

 

[WiZZiM]

whats the deal with triple up structures?

in any case the turn is our major decision point. Against bad players, they won't recognize bet sizes as much, so i'd be the turn to like 100-200 kind of a blocking bet. And the same for the river, 100-200ish. we extract value, stop ourselves being bluffed if we check/forced to fold to big bet.

On this board, since he nearly has all combos possible, we're going to be in trouble a lot of the time. So the above line will work well, but your going to have to be ready to fold if he ever raises us. The alternative is to check/decide on turn. Try to judge the strength of his hand by bet size (no easy task) Sometimes bad villians only bet like 100 here, so we get to a cheap river.

anyways, there's a number of different lines you can take here, none of them are perfect, there's valid points to a heap of differant lines, stacking off in this specific situation can never really be too bad, but if you are not thinking about these spots at all, your likely being eliminated from tournaments in the early game a bit. Sometimes you just need to have really good discipline and fold these pair hands on terrible boards in the early-mid game.

This is also one of those spots where your own personal choice will make a difference. Some people like to mass multitable and just bet/bet/bet stacking off no matter what. others, like myself, like to limit the amount of variance and have a steady profit rather than a swingy one, folding these spots sometimes can save you games, which leads to more profit later on.

If this is some sort of bubble then we need all stack sizes to determine what is best.

 

[Propane Goat]

whats the deal with triple up structures?

in any case the turn is our major decision point. Against bad players, they won't recognize bet sizes as much, so i'd be the turn to like 100-200 kind of a blocking bet. And the same for the river, 100-200ish. we extract value, stop ourselves being bluffed if we check/forced to fold to big bet.

On this board, since he nearly has all combos possible, we're going to be in trouble a lot of the time. So the above line will work well, but your going to have to be ready to fold if he ever raises us. The alternative is to check/decide on turn. Try to judge the strength of his hand by bet size (no easy task) Sometimes bad villians only bet like 100 here, so we get to a cheap river.

anyways, there's a number of different lines you can take here, none of them are perfect, there's valid points to a heap of differant lines, stacking off in this specific situation can never really be too bad, but if you are not thinking about these spots at all, your likely being eliminated from tournaments in the early game a bit. Sometimes you just need to have really good discipline and fold these pair hands on terrible boards in the early-mid game.

This is also one of those spots where your own personal choice will make a difference. Some people like to mass multitable and just bet/bet/bet stacking off no matter what. others, like myself, like to limit the amount of variance and have a steady profit rather than a swingy one, folding these spots sometimes can save you games, which leads to more profit later on.

If this is some sort of bubble then we need all stack sizes to determine what is best.

Thanks for the help Wizzim, I was thinking after the hand that I had put too many chips into the pot by the time it got to the river, especially playing OOP on this kind of board, and it's nice to have some confirmation. I've struggled with triple-ups at times, if you play them super tight all the way through you wind up getting blinded out in 4th or 5th.

 

[WiZZiM]

don't even know what they are. on stars?

 

[Propane Goat]

don't even know what they are. on stars?

Triple-up's are on Bovada, they're similar to DoN's except that 1/3 of the players cash instead of 1/2.

 

[WiZZiM]

oh ok cool, sound a lot better than DON's, don't know how people play those.

 

[suby_rafael]

Hmmm

I would have played the hand differently but since you want to know the decision to make on the river so i will assume i played the hand till the turn as you did.

On the river i would check and if he bets or puts us all in the i will call. This is only because of the size of pot and the way the hand was played till the turn.

Now how differently would i play it ?

I would check call the flop. I would check again on the turn to see if he slows down. If he makes a decent size bet (like less than half pot) i would still call. Again i would check the river and if he still bets then i fold. If the turn bet is big enough that i sense strength then i even fold on the turn.

 

[Propane Goat]

I would have played the hand differently but since you want to know the decision to make on the river so i will assume i played the hand till the turn as you did.

On the river i would check and if he bets or puts us all in the i will call. This is only because of the size of pot and the way the hand was played till the turn.

Now how differently would i play it ?

I would check call the flop. I would check again on the turn to see if he slows down. If he makes a decent size bet (like less than half pot) i would still call. Again i would check the river and if he still bets then i fold. If the turn bet is big enough that i sense strength then i even fold on the turn.

Thanks for your advice, this is probably one of my weaknesses when I'm playing OOP is knowing when to slow down in certain situations. In this case, though, I had seen the villain making huge overbets several times after calling pre and seeing original raiser not bet the flop, and also seen him continue calling post with middle/bottom pair or just two overcards, so I couldn't give him a whole lot of credit for trapping here.

 

[horizon12]

Wrong size bets , so when big bets it will be difficult to fold in marginal situations, when stack not deep. In preflop min raise enough 200, In flop when board cordinated bet 40% on the size of the pot. In turn I check because now board becomes very cordinated and vs lose aggrasive vilain this board suitable. If villain bet in turn i call not more size pot, and in river only check/fold.

With the right sizing this hand look like preflop raise 200 pot 550 , in turn 200 and your stack 20bb stilll playabble what you can find fold , if villain raise or bet in river,,,

In your hand river check/call this optimal line vs lose aggrasive player, because he can shove top pair or full bluff,,

 

[BearPlay]

If this is some sort of bubble then we need all stack sizes to determine what is best.

This info is critical for correct DON/TON play. What are the stacks? That will determine how I play this hand.

I appreciate your question. I believe that we were in another thread where many people did not understand the importance of playing DON/TON differently than a traditional SNG, especially at/near the bubble.

ICM is your friend

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

uhm....God!... I hate hands like this.

I think I may have played the hand very similarly to the way you played it, although I don't think it is ideal.

I'd bet a little less on the flop hoping that he will check-raise again and then I can jam over the top (or call if he puts it in). If he just flats, then I'm keeping the pot small with what is now a marginal hand (that is a pretty terrible flop for KK, I think since anybody who was set mining or playing suited connectors loves this flop).

The turn, I agree with whoever said the turn is the decision point. What an awful card for us!!! grrrrr..... I think I'd check the turn and then either fold to his bet, or jam over the top if I think he is full of it.


If I make it to the river I probably wanna slit my wrists seeing yet another terrible card. You definitely have to check the river, as any bet you make will only get called when you are beat. So you check and have to decide whether to use KK as a bluff catcher, or whether to give up. It would be awesome if he checked behind with a hand like AT....

 

[Propane Goat]

I really appreciate the help everyone, I don't know how to multi-quote so I'll just have to reply this way.....

Horizon, thanks for the info on bet sizing, this is still an area I know very little about. About all I know about bet sizing is not giving a villain the odds to chase draws, but I have trouble recognizing spots where I shouldn't be building big pots OOP on dangerous boards.

BearPlay, IIRC there were no short stacks at this point in the tournament. There were 4 knocked out at this point but the chips were pretty evenly distributed, the villain in this hand had the biggest stack but everyone else had 20+ BB too. Villain had knocked 2 players out but spewed a lot of those chips away to other players still in. I think I said in the other thread about DoN/triple-up play that keeping the chips you have is more important than trying to take a bunch of risks to accumulate a big stack.....way to not follow my own advice here huh?

Missjacki, I hate hands like this too, these situations are usually what cost me big after trying to be patient and wait for good starting hands. There was no check-raise here, I was in EP and the villain called every bet I made until the river.

Thanks again for the feedback everyone.