$3.30 NLHE MTT: Correct to shove here ? Another middle pair scenario

[RamdeeBen]

This hand cropped up, I raised in the MP+1 and got flat called by the cut off seat. I only just moved to the table so had no history, I pot size the flop and get min raised agains't the orginally caller. Obviously at this point, I'm pot commited near enough and shove him expecting him to turn over a flush draw.

The question is, is it correct to be with the blinds this small betting pot sized and willing to stack here? I guess it's quite feasible to say people flat in position with 10's/Jacks or more (if deep stacked) and I can expected being shoved with Jacks+? So I narrowed it down to suited/un suited connectors with his short stack as most would ship it here? So, was this bad to shove when I'm raised(min)? Opinions? Is this standard play and would most be making this play at this stage with 25/50 blinds? Still relatively good to fold and wait where I'm a bigger favourite? Like I say I did put him on two over cards and also a flush/straight draw maybe I didn't think he would be beating me at present.. Oh and he's short stacked so, maybe even just ship the flop to start with or?? Either way, I thought at present I had him beat but I expected a straight or flush draw along with two overs. So, profitable shove with the current blind levels? Of course with him being SHORT, and he only has 500 behind left, it's an easy call, right? The question is - is this a shover POST FLOP ?

How would some of you better players be playing this hand?


Poker Stars - $3.00+0.30 Tournament (#392379438) - Blinds: 25/50 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: t7,790
BB: t2,720
UTG: t2,645
UTG+1: t2,955
MP: t3,305
MP+1 Hero: t3,150
MP+2: t1,660
CO: t6,030
BTN: t1,875

Pre-flop: (t75) Hero is MP+1 and dealt
3 folds, Hero raises to t150, MP+2 calls t150, 3 folds, BB calls t100

Flop: (t475) (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t500, MP+2 raises to t1,000, BB folds, Hero raises to t3,000 (All-in), MP+2 calls t510 (All-in), Hero returned t1,490

Turn: (t3,495) (2 players)

River: (t3,495) (2 players)

 

[ClubArrow77]

I think you played this hand well. Although there was a flush and straight draw on the flop, given that you raised preflop, I dont think villains are playing 45 after calling 3x BB preflop so villain could be playing paint and have a flush draw, a higher pocket pair than us, lower pocket pair, or paint with low kicker that connected. I like the raise on the flop and the following shove but maybe half pot rather than pot is better although I do like the play. You are only losing to two pair (unlikely on this flop) or a facing a draw with a reraise so I like the shove since you still can survive and recover even if you were coolered

 

[Gunner57]

I like your play. All pretty good and solid play IMO.

Thinking about your flop bet I like it more and more. If he is on the draw by calling on the flop he is committed to the hand and Hero should figure is ahead. If he folds we chip up. If villan is loose this is the best play.

The case for the smaller bet is that we limit our risk on the turn and causiouly build pot. However you would be giving correct odds for flush draw to call. On turn card we can then put him all in to throw off any river draws and win a good pot here or get called with other PP, AK, miracle str8, or set. For most of range we are good.

How I would have played it is:
Pre-flop: raise to 125 (2.5x BB)
Flop: Bet 200 (if 3 bet shove)
Turn: Bet all in

 

[RamdeeBen]

I think you played this hand well. Although there was a flush and straight draw on the flop, given that you raised preflop, I dont think villains are playing 45 after calling 3x BB preflop so villain could be playing paint and have a flush draw, a higher pocket pair than us, lower pocket pair, or paint with low kicker that connected. I like the raise on the flop and the following shove but maybe half pot rather than pot is better although I do like the play. You are only losing to two pair (unlikely on this flop) or a facing a draw with a reraise so I like the shove since you still can survive and recover even if you were coolered

My usual play with a draw heavy board is pot sized if I have an overpair because I don't like being flatted on and if it's a bad card I don't know what my next move is. You think half bet is better then even though he is a short stack?

Thanks for reply.

I like your play. All pretty good and solid play IMO.

Thinking about your flop bet I like it more and more. If he is on the draw by calling on the flop he is committed to the hand and Hero should figure is ahead. If he folds we chip up. If villan is loose this is the best play.

The case for the smaller bet is that we limit our risk on the turn and causiouly build pot. However you would be giving correct odds for flush draw to call. On turn card we can then put him all in to throw off any river draws and win a good pot here or get called with other PP, AK, miracle str8, or set. For most of range we are good.

How I would have played it is:
Pre-flop: raise to 125 (2.5x BB)
Flop: Bet 200 (if 3 bet shove)
Turn: Bet all in

I wanted to obviously just take the pot down here and then, I didn't ideally want to shove or see the next card, although that was the case on the flop. As for a smaller bet, that's what clubarrow recommends. Isn't that out the question though, I always thought the idea was to make them pay to hit that flush or straight, ie: them get it in bad and if we're sucked out on then so be it? Thanks for reply!

 

[RamdeeBen]

In general, if you think your pair is good on the flop. Are you willing to stack with your current over pair to two potential over cards and flush/straight draws or is this none profitable with all these outs?

 

[losched16]

In general, I'm fine with stacking off with an overpair on the flop. 9/10 times I treat it as the best hand, especially heads up on the flop. Most of the time, you are going to see A7 flipped over thinking that top pair is good on this type of board. Sure we do not like to see two over cards and a flush draw turned over. But with this particular hand and the stack sizes, I am shoving. If someone flips over 1010 or JJ that would suck as well, but cannot avoid it.

 

[Gunner57]

My usual play with a draw heavy board is pot sized if I have an overpair because I don't like being flatted on and if it's a bad card I don't know what my next move is. You think half bet is better then even though he is a short stack?

Thanks for reply.



I wanted to obviously just take the pot down here and then, I didn't ideally want to shove or see the next card, although that was the case on the flop. As for a smaller bet, that's what clubarrow recommends. Isn't that out the question though, I always thought the idea was to make them pay to hit that flush or straight, ie: them get it in bad and if we're sucked out on then so be it? Thanks for reply!

I think that is the idea. I think the idea is you want to bet just enough for them to call with improper odds. (with my case I put down what I would likely do in heat of battle... Not what I think is the most EV+ With this being a MTT you may not want to take too many chances and let villans call slightly EV- bets. You want higher EV- bets or to take the pot here and now.

To me your pot sized flop bet is good also because you are oop try to be aggressive when you have a good hand. So try to take the pot now. If he calls and the flush hits then you still have chips and try to keep pot low for showdown. I would not worry about the 5 due to pre flop raise (only worry about 55 or loose A5).

The reason why I say all in on turn (if not re-raised on flop) is the pot is good size and if he has a solid flush draw he may not be able to fold it and will call and be +EV- on the river. If he folds is also good for you as you take pot without needing to worry about river.

I try not to worry about the moster under the bed (higher pp or set) unless you have been playing with this guy for a bit, it is difficult to see and you cant play scared. Also, at this level I think it is possible for someone to call and possibly raise you with that flop with AK, AQ or two Hearts.

 

[Pascal-lf]

No need to overpot it, but 200 is too small; you want to give draws an incorrect price to call, which just under pot does, but you still want to get calls from stuff like A7 and A6 which people are more likely to do in my experience if you bet under total pot because if you bet over pot villains tend to be like "wtf overpot" and fold slightly more hands..

3bet jam over the raise. He raises enough with draws/worse pairs to make it profitable. Also see villains randomly turning up 44/55 here which you crush. You can check in Pokerstove what your equity is with 99 against say ATs yourself

Getting it in now is fine - trying to keep the pot small with 99 in this spot 3 way or even HU in this spot is horrible. If it remained 3way then you are scared of so many cards, the only great cards for you are like a 9 or a 3, and no hearts, over 2 streets, which really sucks. Also, if you bet small and someone peels, you are giving anyone else in the hand with back doors or over cards great odds to peel, and it'll be much harder to put them on a narrow range. If it was HU, then once you get raised to 1k you have to jam; if you peel, MP+2 has put in nearly all his stack anyway, so it's going in on the turn; might as well get it in on the flop!

 

[Poker Orifice]

Only thing (imo) you're sayin' > yah jam here when he 3bets you on the flop. You have zero fold equity... villain's 3bet here is basically putting you allin. I'm not suggesting 'call' & see turn.. just sayin'.. when we get it in on the flop here it's not like we're jamming with fe.. we're basically calling because it'd be nuts to think villain would ever fold.
Personally I think it'd be easy to see us flipping or behind here & as far as punchin' #'s into pokerstove goes, put in a range for villain. One of the more telling signs that villain's a fish (& why I'd be more comfortable feelin' like I'm flipping or ahead here) is his bizarre raise size postflop.
OP, I doubt I'm betting POT here in this spot, maybe 2/3> 3/4 pot. Betting POT will often fold out hands we get value from. If villain's coming over the top with FL Drw & overs (or if we're planning on calling... then shouldn't we be planning to induce this? ie. bet 2/3 pot > call shove).
Also (imo) Postflop 'POT-sized bets look weak'ish'. I don't know how many times I've seen villain(s) donkbet "POT" & fold to a raise or check/fold turn when floated. You'll see this from some players in CC games too > "POT" is so often a MPTK or bluff with AIR.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Thanks for the replies, kind of makes sense.

However, "after" I bet pot size, I was paying to much attention to his stack at this point. Me betting pot for him to then minraise, puts us both in pot committing positions, hence the shove. At this point, I was never going to be folding my pair with this short stack - that's why I thought I should just shove the flop to start with, as I could only assign a mid pocket pair to him that people might call with. Or A,10 sort of hands.

Due to the nature of the board I thought he could possibly limped with any A,x or so on.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Only thing (imo) you're sayin' > yah jam here when he 3bets you on the flop. You have zero fold equity... villain's 3bet here is basically putting you allin. I'm not suggesting 'call' & see turn.. just sayin'.. when we get it in on the flop here it's not like we're jamming with fe.. we're basically calling because it'd be nuts to think villain would ever fold.
Personally I think it'd be easy to see us flipping or behind here & as far as punchin' #'s into pokerstove goes, put in a range for villain. One of the more telling signs that villain's a fish (& why I'd be more comfortable feelin' like I'm flipping or ahead here) is his bizarre raise size postflop.
OP, I doubt I'm betting POT here in this spot, maybe 2/3> 3/4 pot. Betting POT will often fold out hands we get value from. If villain's coming over the top with FL Drw & overs (or if we're planning on calling... then shouldn't we be planning to induce this? ie. bet 2/3 pot > call shove).
Also (imo) Postflop 'POT-sized bets look weak'ish'. I don't know how many times I've seen villain(s) donkbet "POT" & fold to a raise or check/fold turn when floated. You'll see this from some players in CC games too > "POT" is so often a MPTK or bluff with AIR.

You think? I'd of thought with his short stack on that board with all those draws anything but pot sized would be giving him the odds near enough with his short stack to either take a gamble, get it all in and potentially have me fold my nines here. As for his weak minraise, I did think "possibly" a set as he'd pot commiting himself here but with his short stack I was willing to go all-in at this point but the most obvious hands here was A,10+ along with suited connectors etc

 

[RamdeeBen]

pokerstars Game #61967874085: Tournament #392379438, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (25/50) - 2011/05/11 19:37:46 WET [2011/05/11 14:37:46 ET]
Table '392379438 118' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: christos805 (3305 in chips)
Seat 2: ramdeebam (3150 in chips)
Seat 3: jeehaa101 (1660 in chips)
Seat 4: Luckybaks7 (6030 in chips)
Seat 5: phreak113 (1875 in chips)
Seat 6: HenriqueABBA (7790 in chips)
Seat 7: tekken55 (2720 in chips)
Seat 8: leonfelden (2645 in chips)
Seat 9: danisimi (2955 in chips)
HenriqueABBA: posts small blind 25
tekken55: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ramdeebam [9d 9h]
leonfelden: folds
danisimi: folds
christos805: folds
ramdeebam: raises 100 to 150
jeehaa101: calls 150
Luckybaks7: folds
phreak113: folds
HenriqueABBA: folds
tekken55: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [7h 3c 6h]
tekken55: checks
ramdeebam: bets 500
jeehaa101: raises 500 to 1000
tekken55: folds
ramdeebam: raises 2000 to 3000 and is all-in
jeehaa101: calls 510 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1490) returned to ramdeebam
*** TURN *** [7h 3c 6h] [4s]
*** RIVER *** [7h 3c 6h 4s] [3d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ramdeebam: shows [9d 9h] (two pair, Nines and Threes)
jeehaa101: shows [Jh Ah] (a pair of Threes)
ramdeebam collected 3495 from pot
jeehaa101 finished the tournament in 1351st place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3495 | Rake 0
Board [7h 3c 6h 4s 3d]
Seat 1: christos805 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ramdeebam showed [9d 9h] and won (3495) with two pair, Nines and Threes
Seat 3: jeehaa101 showed [Jh Ah] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 4: Luckybaks7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: phreak113 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: HenriqueABBA (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: tekken55 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: leonfelden folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: danisimi folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[RamdeeBen]

Why he min raised is beyond me, he should of been happily shipping it here as with his stack he was never letting go and might of had "some" fold equity at this point even though I'm not 100% sure I'd of layed my hand down as he had so little behind him.

 

[Pascal-lf]

You think? I'd of thought with his short stack on that board with all those draws anything but pot sized would be giving him the odds near enough with his short stack to either take a gamble, get it all in and potentially have me fold my nines here. As for his weak minraise, I did think "possibly" a set as he'd pot commiting himself here but with his short stack I was willing to go all-in at this point but the most obvious hands here was A,10+ along with suited connectors etc

Don't fold 9s here against the shortstack. Not sure what you are saying in your sentence about potentially having to fold 9s - while there aren't many great cards 3 way, if you do bet say only 2/3 pot and get called by the shortstack you can get it in on most non-heart turns. AT+ is only obvious because it's slightly worse than what he turned up with - suited connectors and weak made hands (K6, 87) feature in his range a lot more than random bluffs.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Don't fold 9s here against the shortstack. Not sure what you are saying in your sentence about potentially having to fold 9s - while there aren't many great cards 3 way, if you do bet say only 2/3 pot and get called by the shortstack you can get it in on most non-heart turns. AT+ is only obvious because it's slightly worse than what he turned up with - suited connectors and weak made hands (K6, 87) feature in his range a lot more than random bluffs.

No, no I never had any intention of folding the nines in all honestly because he was short. The thing is why I pot bet is because, if he just calls and the turn is any high card then he shoves on me I feel I'm beat but still call anyway. You say bet 2/3 of the pot and get it in on the turn with any non heart, so at this point again come the turn your saying any heart that comes I can let it go on the turn and fold to his shove? Isn't this weak play really, considering his short stack? Like I say, I'd of thought a shove on the flop vs him is quite ok? I can never fold( I don't think even with min raise kind of made me wonder if I was beat), don't like flatting his raise to see a higher card I'd rather get the money in on the flop. I feel at least I'm justified and let the poker gods do their work and give him his flush draw on the turn or river OR his higher card pairing if needs be and feel ok with that, but less ok with me still having the call regardless of what comes off on the turn. Does that make any sense I know it sounds all gobble goke.

The way I see it, if a shortie is going to call the 2/3 pot size bet on the flop he is always going to be calling a pot sized isn't he?

That's why I opted to shove the flop after his min raise because of that very reason. I remember the hand very well and assigned a hand range A,10+(suited) would quite often make this call along with suited or unsuited cards.

There has been to many times where I have seen hands like this hit or something with a 2/3 pot bet and shove on me the turn/river I know I'm almost certainly beat and still feel I have to call. I just thought shoving the flop might of been much more feasible in all honestly, sure I might lose some value, but at least there is a chance of a the fold and I'm happy taking down a pot with a board like this, rather than feeling I let him see the turn far to cheaply to hit. You think that's to aggressive?

I just hate playing them all the way down to the river, If I feel I'm never folding my nines on the flop, can I really fold to his smallish shove on the turn/river regardless if any high cards come out? I'm just thinking I can get him to fold if I put him on a decision to risk his tournament life on A high or a draw rather than him hit then still have to call regardless of what cards come out.

Does that make any sense? I hope it does. Basically what I'm saying is, I don't like these fooks having the "chance" I'd rather them either fold or risk their tournament life on an all-in..as opposed to them getting away from any turn/river's..even though that would be stupid by him regardless but they have a habit of doing this quite often..

 

[Pascal-lf]

Never letting going Betting flop jamming turn regardless. Sizing isn't all that important, the difference between 2/3 and just over pot is negligible. FWIW I bet just under pot rather than just over pot tho, it just looks more 'standard'. And AT+ of hearts is very different to just AT+ - I think his range is much wider than just AT+ of hearts - I'd put it at any 2 hearts with that stack.

I agree completely with you BTW

 

[Slow Roll Poker]

That was definitely the right move to make there. You didn't let him see another card without paying. Nicely played hand.