$3.3 NLHE MTT Bounty Turbo: J high flush on 4-flush board

[fundiver199]

Early in a 3,3$ PKO on 888 Poker. UTG was playing VPIP 15 / PFR 8 over 26 hands. BTN was playing VPIP 37 / PFR 19 over 55 hands.

888Poker, $3 + $0.30 - Hold'em No Limit - 15/30 (3 ante) - 7 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 3,224 (107 bb)
MP: 2,951 (98 bb)
MP+1: 2,895 (97 bb)
CO: 2,940 (98 bb)
BU: 3,428 (114 bb)
SB: 4,531 (151 bb)
BB (Hero): 2,565 (86 bb)

Pre-Flop: (66) Hero is BB with A♦ J♣
UTG calls 30, 3 players fold, BTN raises to 156, 1 fold, Hero calls 126, UTG calls 126

Flop: (504) 4♣ A♣ 9♣ (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets 252, Hero calls 252, UTG calls 252

Turn: (1,260) 5♣ (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets 2,813 (all-in), BTN calls 2,813, BB (Hero)?

 

[Edu1]

I think is a clear fold, if they go all in, at least one opponent has Kc or Qc for sure.
also "Hero" don't cover anyone, so no possibility of a bounty in this play.

 

[Poker Orifice]

wtf did UTG have there? What a bizarre lead out.

 

[fundiver199]

wtf did UTG have there? What a bizarre lead out.

Here is the full hand history including the results:

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter

 

[eetenor]

Here is the full hand history including the results:

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter

Thank you for posting

Considering the frequency with which your V take these uncommon lines have you considered taking control of the pot preflop or on the flop or on the turn?

Preflop would be 3 bet to ISO

Flop would be check raise or lead decide

Turn would be lead decide.

Would your V even understand the range you are representing if you did any of the above?
Then respond truer to their holdings?

Hope this helps

 

[tzuriel]

Here is the full hand history including the results:

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter

People are mostly insane, I think. But still a good fold, probably.

 

[PPT]

I'd have probably called, though I appreciate it may not be the best move. The Flush is winning here, the board isn't paired so there's slim chance of a Full House happening (though as it happens A9 would have hit it), and only the 2c3c would be a Straight Flush and that would have been folded pre-flop if it existed.

The Ace is already on the board so that's not in play. That leaves your J as the third-best card, only the K or Q is beating it.

I'd have probably called and crossed my fingers.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I'd have probably called, though I appreciate it may not be the best move. The Flush is winning here, the board isn't paired so there's slim chance of a Full House happening (though as it happens A9 would have hit it), and only the 2c3c would be a Straight Flush and that would have been folded pre-flop if it existed.

The Ace is already on the board so that's not in play. That leaves your J as the third-best card, only the K or Q is beating it.

I'd have probably called and crossed my fingers.

Personally I would've folded as OP did.

When player takes the lead & shoves 2x pot... and then initial raiser CALLS.... what do we think he's thinking.... and what could we think we're possibly ahead of w the Jc? (turns out they were both droolers but to make the call with needing to rely on this...... I mean even a drooler isn't going to make the call with less than Qc)

 

[puzzlefish]

It's a low-stakes bounty turbo. The ranges are very wide. You're over-folding here when only 2 hands are beating you. I think you call and rebuy here when you are wrong this early in the MTT. odds are you will have a deep stack, which is very helpful even if you don't get their bounties.

 

[feisas7991]

Fold pre, their iso range is too strong.
As played easy fold/
Hope this helps and Good Luck!

 

[fundiver199]

Thanks to everyone for the input. I thought, it was an interesting hand to share, and I am happy to see differing opinions, because then there is a chance, we can all learn something. Here are my own thoughts about the hand:

Preflop
I considered a 3-bet, but because BTN has made such a large raise, I would have to commit around a quarter of my stack. If he 4-bet jam, I need to fold, and if he call, I am stuck in a massive pot OOP with AJ, which I was not really excited about. So basically a 3-bet would be turning AJ into a bluff, which I felt, the hand was a little to strong to do.

Also when there are limpers involved, and someone else have already isolated, there is value in just flatting to allow the limper(s) to make further mistakes and come along with hands, that we dominate. Which is actually exactly, what happened here. If I 3-bet, then the limper most likely fold his A3 offsuit, so I almost force him to play well.

Flop
As played I dont see much reason to do anything other than check-call with top pair and the third nut flushdraw. The hand is obviously to strong to fold, but at the same time, if I start raising or donk leading and build a massive pot, I am usually behind to the hands, that continue.

Turn
This is the funny one of course, and my line of thinking was, what some of respondents have already expressed, that with this action for sure someone must have either Kc or Qc, so I folded. Turns out I was wrong though, which just goes to show, how weird some people play in the micros.

It also goes to show, how HUD stats can sometimes be a bit misleading. UTG had been playing fairly tight over 26 hands, so he was not the kind of player, I would expect to limp-call A3o UTG and then turn it into a wild bluff for all his chips. But it just goes to show, that we are playing against humans, and sometimes humans do things, we dont expect from them.

 

[fundiver199]

You're over-folding here when only 2 hands are beating you.

Only two hands but a lot of combos, since Kc and Qc can be combined with any other unseen card to make a better hand. When we determine, how high in our range, we are, we always need to look at combos rather than, how many different hands beat us. Having KK on KQJT3 rainbow is not nearly as good as having 88 on KQ832 rainbow, even though both hands are the third nuts.

 

[puzzlefish]

Only two hands but a lot of combos, since Kc and Qc can be combined with any other unseen card to make a better hand. When we determine, how high in our range, we are, we always need to look at combos rather than, how many different hands beat us. Having KK on KQJT3 rainbow is not nearly as good as having 88 on KQ832 rainbow, even though both hands are the third nuts.

Okay, I understand this, but really how many combos are there involving Kc and Qc that is based on their pre-flop and flop action? I bet if you look at it closer you will find it isn't as many as you may think.

 

[fundiver199]

Okay, I understand this, but really how many combos are there involving Kc and Qc that is based on their pre-flop and flop action? I bet if you look at it closer you will find it isn't as many as you may think.

I dont think, UTG ever fold Kc or Qc on the flop, and I also think, BTN will usually bet it. So whichever combos, they can have from preflop, they can still have on the turn. BTN raised preflop, so maybe we can narrow him down to decent hands like AK (3), AQ (3), KQ (7), KJ (3) and QJ (3), but that is still 16 combos.

As for BTN, given that he limp-called with A3o, he can probably have a lot of different hands. His river line is rather suspect though, so if BTN had folded, I would have gotten curious and locked him up. I dont think, the nut flush leads out for 2x the pot all that often. Typically most people will understand, that this is not the best way to get paid on such an obvious board.

So it was mostly due to the BTN call, that I layed it down. I was not expecting him to call with something as light as the 8 high flush with another guy left to act behind him. Or for that matter even C-bet the flop into two opponents, who could both easily have him beat, as in fact we did. But as we all know from the replay, I was wrong

 

[puzzlefish]

I dont think, UTG ever fold Kc or Qc on the flop, and I also think, BTN will usually bet it. So whichever combos, they can have from preflop, they can still have on the turn. BTN raised preflop, so maybe we can narrow him down to decent hands like AK (3), AQ (3), KQ (7), KJ (3) and QJ (3), but that is still 16 combos.

As for BTN, given that he limp-called with A3o, he can probably have a lot of different hands. His river line is rather suspect though, so if BTN had folded, I would have gotten curious and locked him up. I dont think, the nut flush leads out for 2x the pot all that often. Typically most people will understand, that this is not the best way to get paid on such an obvious board.

So it was mostly due to the BTN call, that I layed it down. I was not expecting him to call with something as light as the 8 high flush with another guy left to act behind him. Or for that matter even C-bet the flop into two opponents, who could both easily have him beat, as in fact we did. But as we all know from the replay, I was wrong

Ok, so you count the 16 combos that beat you and how many suited combos that don't? UTG's jam shows weakness (or a very stupid trap) and BTN calls it because it is interpreted as weak. I'm just saying you are over-folding if this is the line you will always take. You also have no stats on your villains. Almost no hands to make any meaningful interpretation of their abilities.

 

[fundiver199]

Ok, so you count the 16 combos that beat you and how many suited combos that don't?

Basically none, since its a mistake by BTN to call with anything worse than the J high flush, when he is not closing action. He accidentally turned his hand into, what is known as a "calling bluff".

 

[puzzlefish]

.. (deleted because I double posted by accident) ..

 

[puzzlefish]

Basically none, since its a mistake by BTN to call with anything worse than the J high flush, when he is not closing action. He accidentally turned his hand into, what is known as a "calling bluff".

So are you now always going to assume your opponents never make mistakes? Is that how we are supposed to calculate combinations and odds? Assume we have perfect opponents?


UTG limps preflop. He could be trying to trap or he could just be terrible. Any number of Ax, pocket pairs, all the way up to KK and AA.

Button raises. He has a very wide range. Bunch of pocket pairs, suited connectors, some unsuited connectors, even Ax that can wheel.

On the flop both you and UTG check. Trap or weakness. Button has a weak draw and beats a bunch of Ax combos that don't have the club. He does a standard weak Cbet that is common at these stakes. Everyone comes along and basically build the pot up.

On the turn UTG jams. As you noticed, this would be unusual for a made nut hand to do this. The right move would be to bet for value or to check back again to induce bluffs. Very rarely this is a trap, but a bunch of times you'll get semi-bluffs with sets, two pairs, and strong Aces trying to take down the pot here.

Button calls, not necessarily with the nut flush, but because he recognizes that UTG played weakly and it's a hugely polarizing move by UTG to jam on the turn. More often than not, UTG doesn't have the nut flush so BTN can call. You're behind but your stack is small, so if UTG is busted then BTN gets the bounty.

We could go one level further and consider that BTN would also recognize that their action would make you fold some of your stronger hands.

 

[fundiver199]

So are you now always going to assume your opponents never make mistakes? Is that how we are supposed to calculate combinations and odds? Assume we have perfect opponents?

No but I am not going to assume, they make massive mistakes, unless I have a strong read on a particular player. I would much rather give my opponents more credit, than perhaps they deserve, than end up being the one, who play poorly, because I mistakenly think, they do.

On the flop both you and UTG check. Trap or weakness.

Checking to the preflop raiser is totally standard and say nothing about neither mine or UTGs range.

Button has a weak draw and beats a bunch of Ax combos that don't have the club.

He is behind to any AX combo with or without a club. The equities are around 43% / 57% in favour of top pair with no flushdraw, so not massively behind, but certainly not ahead either. And if someone have a hand like the one, I had, he is drawing almost dead with only 7% equity.

You're behind but your stack is small, so if UTG is busted then BTN gets the bounty.

That is true, but he also lose most of his chips, since I am not that much shorter than him, and overall bountys should not influenze strategy a lot in this particular spot, since they were very small to the point, that they almost did not matter.

We could go one level further and consider that BTN would also recognize that their action would make you fold some of your stronger hands.

That is possible, but if he was that good, then he would also be good enough to know, that he should not C-bet in this spot .

 

[Poker Orifice]

Fold pre, their iso range is too strong.
As played easy fold/

this ^

 

[fundiver199]

So are you now always going to assume your opponents never make mistakes?

Just as a quick addition, I do think, there is some argument to be made for the fact, that people are playing more loose, because its a bounty tournament and also a very low buyin. So I can get more on board with calling down in this particular tournament, than had it been for instance a 16,5$ non-bounty event. And obviously this time I would have won the hand. Anyways I appreciate the input and discussion, and I just want to make it clear, that I dont think, there are any clearly "wrong" or "correct" answers here. Which is the whole point of bringing the hand up for discussion

 

[puzzlefish]

Just as a quick addition, I do think, there is some argument to be made for the fact, that people are playing more loose, because its a bounty tournament and also a very low buyin. So I can get more on board with calling down in this particular tournament, than had it been for instance a 16,5$ non-bounty event. And obviously this time I would have won the hand. Anyways I appreciate the input and discussion, and I just want to make it clear, that I dont think, there are any clearly "wrong" or "correct" answers here. Which is the whole point of bringing the hand up for discussion

Of course. That's why we are here - to have a discussion. I played a couple of buy-ins in a PKO yesterday at around the $5 level and still saw super loose play there too.