$3.25 NLHE STT Turbo: Called every street, throw top pair away?

[ben_rhyno]

$3.25 NL HE STT Turbo: Called every street, throw top pair away?

pokerstars Game #40873629690: Tournament #250693745, $3.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2010/03/08 23:15:25 UTC [2010/03/08 18:15:25 ET]
Table '250693745 1' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Stranger60 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: thakos74 (1410 in chips)
Seat 3: Natius1987 (1430 in chips)
Seat 4: evilkrause (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: JOSE20222 (2060 in chips)
Seat 6: upnorthruss (1380 in chips)
Seat 7: ben-rhyno (1390 in chips)
Seat 8: zxzx586 (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: baao (1360 in chips)
Seat 10: Monterroso69 (1500 in chips)
ben-rhyno: posts small blind 10
zxzx586: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ben-rhyno [Ks] [Qs]
baao: folds
Monterroso69: folds
Stranger60: folds
thakos74: calls 20
Natius1987: calls 20
evilkrause: folds
JOSE20222: raises 60 to 80
upnorthruss: folds
ben-rhyno: calls 70
zxzx586: folds
thakos74: calls 60
Natius1987: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Kd] [Jh] [4s]
ben-rhyno: bets 100
thakos74: calls 100
Natius1987: folds
JOSE20222: calls 100
*** TURN *** [Kd] [Jh] [4s] [Jc]
ben-rhyno: bets 240
thakos74: calls 240
JOSE20222: folds
*** RIVER *** [Kd] [Jh] [4s] [Jc] [2d]
ben-rhyno: checks
thakos74: bets 320
ben-rhyno: ????????????????????

Was I right to keep betting into this? No stats on villain, but te whole table seemed pretty loose. I think I maybe should have reraised preflop.
Any thoughts?

 

[Jillychemung]

Your bet-sizing is pretty poor. 100 into a 360 pot?? then 240 into a 660 pot?? I'd view these as very weak bets into a 2card broadway flop and paired board turn.

 

[ben_rhyno]

The 100 was a misclick, but yes the 240 wasnt quite big enough i admit

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I agree, you're bet sizing leaves much to be desired.

If you're gonna bet - bet something substantial.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

As played you obviously flat call river, i dont even know why you have posted this hand and why you would consider throwing it away, youve shown weakness so of course he is betting river, you flat call here as played.

How i think it should have been played

flop bet 220, turn bet then about 400-600 dependant on callers

This river bet looks like he missed a draw fwiw and youve shwon so much weakness he has bluffed.

So yeh obviously a flat call 100% of the time, if anyone disgarees ( and im talking about how the hand was played) then i think your alittle crazy

 

[Jillychemung]

Agreed, as played this is a call 100% of the time.

 

[ben_rhyno]

I intended for the flop bet to be 200, but misclicked and pressed enter before realising the mistake. I then figured that going from 100 on the flop to around 360-450 on the turn would look suspicious so I kept it fairly low. I suppose I could have represented the J on the turn.
I did just flat the river: result in white if anyone cares:
Villain turned over Jack ten offsuit

 

[ben_rhyno]

As played you obviously flat call river, i dont even know why you have posted this hand and why you would consider throwing it away, youve shown weakness so of course he is betting river, you flat call here as played.

Because it is the Hand Analaysis section and I wanted:
a) people's opinions on where I could improve the playing of this hand
b) to know what people would do on the river as played
c) people's opinions of how they would play the hand differently

So that I can improve my game, and start getting 1st place instead of 3rd most of the time

 

[WiZZiM]

A)Fold it preflop, at BEST this was a limp behind the other limpers.. postflop you kinda overplayed your hand by makn the pot bigger..
B)id most probably put a blocker bet out and fold to a riase.. i dont mind check calling though... i dont really think villains are bluffing here too much.. but you could still easily have the best hand..
C) i would limp behind the other limpers.. check call the flop chcek call the turn and check/consider folding the river depending what the board brings.... pot control..

 

[ben_rhyno]

Thankyou Wizzim, I actually thought I had the best hand, that's why I kept betting. At this level I expected the other limpers to call the raise so I was betting 70 into at least 240 as I knew at least one of the limpers would call the raise. 24/7 odds are over 3/1 and I figured I wasn't a 3/1 underdog with my KQ, and I ended up getting 32/7, closer to 5/1 for my call. (If calculated correctly.) I then figured top pair good kicker was worth a bet and I was correct as I had the best hand on the flop, just a shame I misclicked and let him draw out on me so easily for 100chips.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Sorry man, it just seems an incredibly standard hand and you seemed to know you played it wrong anyway.

Flatting the river was 100% the right move 100% of the time no matter the result

 

[cjatud2012]

I feel like this is why we fold hands like this out of position in the early stages. I understand you were getting good odds, but the flop comes, we make a bet for some reason, we get a call, and suddenly we have no clue where we're at. Plus we've inflated the pot, we're going to have a hard time keeping it small, and if it gets any bigger we're not gonna want to get away. Is this a spot we want to be in? Not really. Just muck it, even if you are forfeiting a small edge. Save your chips for the later stages.

 

[ben_rhyno]

Sorry man, it just seems an incredibly standard hand and you seemed to know you played it wrong anyway.

Flatting the river was 100% the right move 100% of the time no matter the result

I wasn't getting at you I know I played it wrong I just wanted to know how to make it better for next time.
I couldnt understand the raise with JTo, so thought he could have had AJ, but then he would have raised more i suppose.
I recovered and went on to take 3rd anyways which was good

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Tbh, if this guy shows J10o, then hes pretty much an idiot, even if you increase that flop bet to what we have mentioned he is probably still calling because he is representing bigger, if its any conselation, you probably lost the minimum

 

[ben_rhyno]

Yeh FTP, the general standard in these seems to be idiots and LAG players, that's why I play them, they pay $15 for 1st, $9 for 2nd and $6 for 3rd they are a goldmine for people like me building a small bankroll

 

[WarriorStoic]

I feel like this is why we fold hands like this out of position in the early stages. I understand you were getting good odds, but the flop comes, we make a bet for some reason, we get a call, and suddenly we have no clue where we're at. Plus we've inflated the pot, we're going to have a hard time keeping it small, and if it gets any bigger we're not gonna want to get away. Is this a spot we want to be in? Not really. Just muck it, even if you are forfeiting a small edge. Save your chips for the later stages.

I agree with all of this.
You were literally in LEVEL ONE of the blinds in this (and while your hand was suited and connected royalty, it's still NOTHING unless you hit. you could argue that it plays well in a multi way pot, to which i will answer the position you played it from does not play well in a multi way pot EVER, unless you flop a royal and check it.). Now as stated above you were getting good odds preflop, and we want to take calculated risks to build our stack for a deep run at the field, but this early in the tournament, why take any risks from out of position? For me this hand was an insta fold pre flop ( im well aware that i may be playing too tight it's one of the things I struggle with.).

Since ya did make the pre call and you don't have position, at a table you said was relativley loose...

Im wondering if perhaps a check raise would have given you more information than the way you played it, as well as showing your hand to be stronger and perhaps taking it right on the flop.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I feel like this is why we fold hands like this out of position in the early stages.

dingdingding we have a winner!

 

[ben_rhyno]

I agree with all of this.
You were literally in LEVEL ONE of the blinds in this (and while your hand was suited and connected royalty, it's still NOTHING unless you hit. you could argue that it plays well in a multi way pot, to which i will answer the position you played it from does not play well in a multi way pot EVER, unless you flop a royal and check it.). Now as stated above you were getting good odds preflop, and we want to take calculated risks to build our stack for a deep run at the field, but this early in the tournament, why take any risks from out of position? For me this hand was an insta fold pre flop ( im well aware that i may be playing too tight it's one of the things I struggle with.).

Since ya did make the pre call and you don't have position, at a table you said was relativley loose...

Im wondering if perhaps a check raise would have given you more information than the way you played it, as well as showing your hand to be stronger and perhaps taking it right on the flop.

I did hit though, top pair. I can't see a fold from many here in this tournament type when any of the villains can have literally any two cards.
I do think a check raise would have been good however,

 

[WarriorStoic]

I did hit though, top pair. I can't see a fold from many here in this tournament type when any of the villains can have literally any two cards.
I do think a check raise would have been good however,

This is exactly why this hand is an insta fold from that position this early in a tournament for me.

 

[cjatud2012]

I did hit though, top pair. I can't see a fold from many here in this tournament type when any of the villains can have literally any two cards.
I do think a check raise would have been good however,

With a hand like KQs, we're not looking to flop top pair, because we either win a small pot with it or lose a huge one to a hand that has us crushed, i.e. AK and AQ. I'd rather flop a flush draw, especially with a gutshot and/or overcards, because we can semi-bluff hard and get a lot of folds. As for the ATC thing, that's part of the point of folding, even if our hand is likely ahead pre-flop. You just don't know where you're at, and, as I said before, you'll either win a small pot, or lose a big one finding out.

 

[ben_rhyno]

Thanks for all the input in this thread guys, really made me analyse my play and think deeper about the hand than i originally did.

On another note, do we think a reraise pre flop would have been better than the call? OR a pot size bet on the flop? I still don't know whether a pot sized bet would push him off his middle pair.
Any other way to play this hand, if you didn't fold in the first place.

 

[WarriorStoic]

I want to revisit the pre flop action with you.
you are in the sb with only 10 chips invested and perhaps as previously stated the odds yoour getting here are enough justification for you to play the hand, however they are not at all for me, for a couple reasons (or deeper clarifications) that go along with what i already said.

First...when you flat call here you leave yourself WIDE open to be re-raised by the firt two guys in the pot and if the do re-raise or even re-SHIP...what are you doing with your cards? donating a 5xbb chunk?

second you only have ten in the pot to begin with so back to position, why risk it here

third the RAISER will have position on you in every street, AND he has everyone at the table stacked when this hand starts.

just some other things for you to look at in the pre flop action of this hand, i really dont think you should be looking for other ways to play this hand pre or post flop, Just dont be there.

 

[cjatud2012]

On another note, do we think a reraise pre flop would have been better than the call? OR a pot size bet on the flop? I still don't know whether a pot sized bet would push him off his middle pair.
Any other way to play this hand, if you didn't fold in the first place.

I still don't like re-raising in this spot, although I do like it better than a call. The reason I think it's silly to 3-bet here is because 1) there are two players sandwiched between us and the original raiser, and 2) were too early in the tournament to be taking a risk like this. The pot is still small, and by re-raising we're bloating the pot when we're out of position when we really don't need to. Besides, against a LAG idiot like this guy, we really don't have any shot to make him fold.

I also wouldn't like a pot bet on the flop. By potting the flop, we've now committed about 33% of our stack with a pretty mediocre hand without any information. Plus, as previously mentioned, you probably can't make the villain fold, no matter what bet you put out there. This may sound nitty, but I'd maybe c/c the flop, then definitely c/f the turn.