$26 PL HE Deep Stacked:5th/109/218 twice avg stack did I overplay KK?

[roger_l]

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 22.92/16.67/0.83

Stacks:
* SB with 10712
* BB with 5054
* UTG with 7674
* UTG+1 with 8996
* MP1 with 8628
* MP2 with 15336
* CO with 7475
* BTN with 1441

Blinds:
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to MP2:K♦ K♥
* * Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
* * UTG calls [160]
* * 1 players fold.
* * UTG+1 calls [160]
* * 1 players fold.
* * Hero raises to 439
* * CO calls [439]
* * 1 players fold.
* * SB calls [359]
* * 1 players fold.
* * UTG calls [279]
* * UTG+1 calls [279]
* * Total folds this street: 4
* * Potsize: 2355
Flop:
* * 5♦ 9♠ 6♥
* * SB checks
* * UTG checks
* * UTG+1 checks
* * Hero bets [1,120]
* * CO raises to 2,885
* * 3 players fold.
* * Hero calls [1,765]
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: 7006
Turn:
* * 2♦
* * Hero checks
* * CO bets [4,151, and is all in]
* * Hero calls [4,151]


The results have been hidden.

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Ok here is my thought process and read here. The villian has been to my left for most of the game. I have been pushing him around with position quite often, not really bad but enough. I have also been in 3 decent sized, one rather large pot with him and won without showing my cards. He claims to have laid down QQ on our last encounter on the turn when i led out he raised and i reraised him. He called me a donkey and said I prolly got two donk cards paired, I did have 89 and hit two pair lol.

Anway he is kinda steaming at me and I think he will make this move at me on this dry board with a lot of hands I can beat, like 10'-QQ. What do you think should I have gotten away from this or am I doing it right going for a near 1st place size stack here?

 

[roger_l]

Now that I am looking at the hand again more myself the first thing I am thinking I did wrong here is my pre flop raise. I am thinking its way to small with the two limpers in front of me.

At the time I was thinking I have not been getting any action on my last few premium hands. I was showing down some good hands and playing rather tight and the table seemed to be respecting my raises almost to good in the past few rotations. I wanted action and got a ton of it, mistake number one I think...

 

[wislim]

I would raise to 800 or 900 that way you can narrow their calling ranges. As you said pf raise is to small and you priced them in. I'd put him on a small-mid pp or some type of connected cards looking to crack a big pp. Could be 55,66,99 or 78 that nailed this flop. As played just fold.

 

[wislim]

Forgot to add that I would rule out QQ+, AKs as he would have re-raised pre. 10 10 or JJ would flat and maybe raise here but if he says he folded QQ earlier my guess is he nailed flop. After fold you still have the big stack at the table.

 

[ImolAyrton]

I would preflop raise bigger after 2 limps.. But you really can't fold on this flop and on the turn..

There is a draw though on the board, but I dont think someone will play 78 here.. and when he moves on the turn when he moves all in on a 2, the only hands that you could beat on the flop and not anymore on the turn are 34 and pocket 2 and I don't really believe he has one..


Good call in my opinion

 

[roger_l]

I agree I should have raised to at least 800 pre. The villains left to act after me have great implied odds that the two limpers both call as well and see a huge pot for pretty cheap. I am pricing in all kinds of small pp's and suited connecters and all kinds of crap.

The raise was horrible and so was the post flop play really. I priced in 78 easily here and any small pp that could of hit there. Plus this villain is quite passive if you see his AF. His action is screaming a big hand with the re raise, so unlike him usually folds easy or just calls and folds turn.

Im now thinking its the worste I have played KK and its because I am playing out of my normal BR the 26 token, and also I have a big stack and "wanted action" i got a little lol.

Ok but still now that i did this small raise can I fold here on the flop or turn? I felt he has a set or better, was thinking big hand for sure, but for some reason I was thinking the math made it so I couldn't fold. Should I just go with my reads here or do i have to call at least the flop after leading out because of the pot odds?

 

[wislim]

The answer lies in your read of villian. If he is very passive post flop as described and will only raise when he has the nuts it's a fold. Shoving on the river is such a strong line for said villian that I can find a fold but not like it. Where as with someone else it might be a bluff shove and I snap call. Even though your getting good odds to call based on your read calling in this spot seems pretty spewy.

 

[roger_l]

Villains seen 1 of 8 showdowns and won. Have seen him put in slightly over half his stack in one hand, vs me, where I raised pre from CO, he 3bet from BT, then I called and saw flop, I hit 2 pr and bet 2/3 of pot on flop, he 3bet me with just over double my bet, I 4 bet all in and he folded leaving himself just over 2k and started the hand with like 5.7k.

Other than the stats, that hand vs him is the most info I have. HE only showed down once and he pretty much had 2nd nuts i think.

 

[EvilEmperor]

With 50BB effective stacks you pretty much have to get it all in here. Villain would have to be ubernit for you to fold.

That said you have to be careful about thinking that villain will be making moves on you because you have been pushing him around. Most villains at these stakes won't. I've made the mistake often thinking someone was playing back at me light when they finally got the nuts. There are a lot of straightforward weak tight players out there that never make moves no matter how much you pound on them.

 

[roger_l]

OK I think the biggest mistake here was not raising to 800+ pre. It would narrow the range I can put my opponents on and hopefully keep hands like 55 from calling and set mining. I think I could have gotten away on the flop also after leading out. Villain was pretty straightforward tight/passive. I will never raise KK this small again in this type of spot.

Villain had 55.

 

[spunka]

Yes preflop raise is a bit low, if you want to thin out the field, however if you want to get as much money as possible if you get a strong hand, (set ..) the the raise is fine, but you defined that you have a reasonable holding, as you have raise 2 players.

You the choose to raise ½ the pot on the flop. Now this look like a standard cont. bet but it is half your stack. maybe a check could do it or just like 750, or if you want to play for your stack Shove here, however ever you get reraised for all your money, and your in trouble and you should know it, opponent has a hand and a strong one that could be from 2 pairs, set to a straight as he know you probaly has an overpair, when villan makes that play I do think you have to fold. You have defined you hand pre-flop you dont have many outs, and you Life is on the line.

I think it's at the flop the big mistake is, you should shove there, there is enough money in the pot and you will put your opponent under a lot of pressure (you get fold eq on your side).
If you get an All in bet from an opponent it's a fold after the flop, if the opponent is capable of playing a bit poker.

Just remember a pair is not that strong after the flop as it is before the flop so much easyer to lay down a big pair after a flop.

 

[HNRocketS]

Preflop raise atleast 800. You should shove the flop everytime. His range may contain 2-pair but smells more like an A9 or a pair and a straight draw. If he's got a set oh well.

 

[JustRaiseTheBlinds]

The trouble starts with a to small raise post-flop.
It's to cheap to see a flop for your opponents.
This way you have to many opponents with almost any 2 hole cards.
After a flop like this you cant say were you at.
There are to many opponents. 1 of them could have made a set or 2 pair.
It's hard to say what to do after the flop...

 

[viking999]

Since it's pretty unanimous that you should have raised more pre, I will ignore that.

I don't think you should fold here. On that kind of flop, there are many hands he could be semi-bluffing or overplaying. With all the draws on the flop and all the other players in the pot, he may be overplaying any 9 because he's scared his call will encourage others to draw (not saying it's a good play, but lots of players think that way). Plus, you think he's steaming against you. So trust in that read and don't give up the hand.

I want to talk about the flop a little bit. Why just flat call his raise instead of shoving? Personally, once I'm that pot committed with KK, I'm only folding the turn if a 7 or 8 comes and he shoves. So I don't think there's an advantage to making this a multi-stage decision. Also, I don't think you gain any value by making him think you're weaker. With the odds he's going to be getting against a shove plus his tilt factor against you, I don't think he'll fold any 9, 77, 88, 67, or 68 if you shove. Those are the hands you want to get all-in against here. Moreover, with those hands he's going to be scared by almost any card you want to see on the turn, so you may not get paid off if you delay the action. Aside from 2, 3, 4, and blank board pairs, he's either going to run into another overcard to his pair, or he's going to hit two pair, a set, or a straight and you're screwed. I say shove and fist-pump on the flop.

 

[roger_l]

I agree with your line of thinking post flop viking. I should have folded to his raise or just went all in. The reason I didn't was I had quite a few hands on him in my hud and he was very straight forward tight/passive. He was very weak post flop and rarely went to showdown and won a very high % of showdowns.

Now I also had my read that he was steamed at me. So I was debating in my head if this nitty player who never 3bets, has never shown a tendency to bluff, could be bluffing/semi bluffing/over playing a hand because he is steamed, or does he just have a set like his nitty past play history would suggest?

I almost folded the flop but I just couldnt get away from the big overpair and agree I should have just went all in on the flop since I did not fold. I think part of me was saying to fold when I check called turn, my subconsouis wanted to check/fold but the rest of me was just saying I cant fold those pot odds with this hand. It is like I knew I was beat and just couldnt fold KK in case I was wrong lol.

 

[realplaya75]

I would say your misstep was that you shouldve made a bigger raie preflop like you said...to try to narrow the action down to heads up. but other than that lookl ike it was played correctly