$25 NLHE MTT: 55 in BB 20bb stack

[No Brainer]

Full Tilt, 120/240 blinds, 25 ante No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: 2,214 (9.2 bb)
Hero (BB): 5,340 (22.3 bb)
UTG+2: 4,080 (17 bb)
MP1: 10,953 (45.6 bb)
MP2: 3,454 (14.4 bb)
MP3: 5,840 (24.3 bb)
CO: 13,719 (57.2 bb)
BTN: 6,586 (27.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5

5

UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls 240, 2 folds, CO raises to 720, 2 folds, Hero...

Still fairly early on, nowhere near the bubble yet, Villain is 30/15 over 60 hands. Is shoving here too loose?

After reviewing the hand I think I may have preferred a shove against a stack like MP3 or CO but not so sure against the big stack at the table as it will not cripple him if he calls and loses.

 

[trent32la]

I'm just folding here.

Villain on his stack doesn't exactly have an iso-raise/fold range here IMO, therefore when you shove, you are most always getting called here and flipping at best. You aren't deep enough to setmine here, and being OOP, you're going to be put in very tough postflop situations unless you flop a 5. There will be better spots and you can pass on this one.

 

[horizon12]

Easy fold, with your size stack not for set value, also you OOP.

 

[PBG789]

Definitely not a shove here but I would almost certainly want to call to set mine.

There is 1520 in the pot and it's 480 to call which is a bit better than 3:1 but the implied odds of hitting the set are huge against a villain with a big stack. The call doesn't really substantially alter hero's overall position in the tournament as he is around the 20BB mark and will be employing the same strategy with 20BB as he would at 23BB.

 

[No Brainer]

I'm just folding here.

Villain on his stack doesn't exactly have an iso-raise/fold range here IMO, therefore when you shove, you are most always getting called here and flipping at best. You aren't deep enough to setmine here, and being OOP, you're going to be put in very tough postflop situations unless you flop a 5. There will be better spots and you can pass on this one.

Easy fold, with your size stack not for set value, also you OOP.

What sort of range do you think would be good for shoving here? Is there any tool out there that you can put villains opening/continuing ranges and stack sizes in that will spit out a profitable hand range for 3 bet shoving?

Definitely not a shove here but I would almost certainly want to call to set mine.

There is 1520 in the pot and it's 480 to call which is a bit better than 3:1 but the implied odds of hitting the set are huge against a villain with a big stack. The call doesn't really substantially alter hero's overall position in the tournament as he is around the 20BB mark and will be employing the same strategy with 20BB as he would at 23BB.

Implied odds are only ever huge if we are deep stacked. Having only 22bbs we can only ever win 22 bbs from villain. Sure we hit a set 1 out of 10 times but we have to remember that we are not going to get stacks in every time and we are out of position. The most likely scenario is that villain will miss the flop, c bet and be done with the hand once we call/raise in which case we only win an extra ~5bbs (half pot c bet).

If we were to call here we would need a plan that did not just involve set mining, we would need to be prepared to raise/shove any flops that we think miss villains range but that can be done with hands that have better post flop playability than 55. Therefore I think we only have 2 options, shoving and folding.

 

[Ambur]

fold as said above. imo

 

[trent32la]

What sort of range do you think would be good for shoving here? Is there any tool out there that you can put villains opening/continuing ranges and stack sizes in that will spit out a profitable hand range for 3 bet shoving?

I'm rejamming AQ+ 99+ here based on villain's stats. ICMizer is a tool that works for this stuff, however it's a real hassle to input non-FT MTT hands into it.

 

[AtiFCOD]

Full Tilt, 120/240 blinds, 25 ante No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: 2,214 (9.2 bb)
Hero (BB): 5,340 (22.3 bb)
UTG+2: 4,080 (17 bb)
MP1: 10,953 (45.6 bb)
MP2: 3,454 (14.4 bb)
MP3: 5,840 (24.3 bb)
CO: 13,719 (57.2 bb)
BTN: 6,586 (27.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5

5

UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls 240, 2 folds, CO raises to 720, 2 folds, Hero...

Still fairly early on, nowhere near the bubble yet, Villain is 30/15 over 60 hands. Is shoving here too loose?

After reviewing the hand I think I may have preferred a shove against a stack like MP3 or CO but not so sure against the big stack at the table as it will not cripple him if he calls and loses.

Is he a thief or not? I cant see any statistics. Against thiefs, a reraise allin can be a good move. But against a "regular" raise, it's a fold IMO.

 

[GDBPoker]

Is he a thief or not? I cant see any statistics. Against thiefs, a reraise allin can be a good move. But against a "regular" raise, it's a fold IMO.

I would mainly base my decision on this^^. Also at this point there are 3 people in the hand, though I dare say if you saw MP1 previously get limpy with big hands you would have mentioned it.

I just quickly jammed some figures into ICMizer, it becomes a fold if you believe villain tightens his CO raise range because of limper, to about 16%. So if you think the limper has influenced his decision, its a fold. Otherwise its technically a +chipEV shove, with the info you've provided. Even so, do we always have to follow this? I still wouldnt feel comfortable shoving even if I was certain MP1 only limps with garbage

 

[hffjd2000]

I would call here because of implied odds.

My bb number is still good for set mining.

 

[AviCKter]

^^ I would have called too. If I hit the flop, my implied odds are massive (I might as well double-up here).

As far as "shove" is concerned, I don't think you could steal from a big stack (that's what you're doing with 5s). Going for value, I might have a very tight shove range with nothing less than {TT+, AQs+, AKo} against a big stack, that early in the tournament.

 

[No Brainer]

I would mainly base my decision on this^^. Also at this point there are 3 people in the hand, though I dare say if you saw MP1 previously get limpy with big hands you would have mentioned it.

I just quickly jammed some figures into ICMizer, it becomes a fold if you believe villain tightens his CO raise range because of limper, to about 16%. So if you think the limper has influenced his decision, its a fold. Otherwise its technically a +chipEV shove, with the info you've provided. Even so, do we always have to follow this? I still wouldnt feel comfortable shoving even if I was certain MP1 only limps with garbage

Quite interesting that it may be a closer decision than first thought as far as ICM is concerned. As you state though it is very marginal and I think with all the information given it would be better to fold.

I would call here because of implied odds.

My bb number is still good for set mining.

^^ I would have called too. If I hit the flop, my implied odds are massive (I might as well double-up here).

As far as "shove" is concerned, I don't think you could steal from a big stack (that's what you're doing with 5s). Going for value, I might have a very tight shove range with nothing less than {TT+, AQs+, AKo} against a big stack, that early in the tournament.

Can you show me how you work out that calling here to setmine will be profitable? As stated earlier in the thread I don't think it is.

 

[Bob23bk]

Villain is 30/15 over 60 hands
...
Is there any tool out there that you can put villains opening/continuing ranges and stack sizes in that will spit out a profitable hand range for 3 bet shoving?

I don't think there's that much to it if you're shoving, especially with such a small sample size. PT4 has 'equity Calculator' in the Tools section and you can use it to generate the range before calculating. If Villain is raising 15% of hands, his range becomes 33+,A4s+,KTs+,A8o+. With 55, you're slightly behind at 45.74% against this range. It's not nearly as detailed as what you've asked for, but it does come in handy (for me, anyways) because you can determine Villain's range and your equity without time bank

Can you show me how you work out that calling here to setmine will be profitable? As stated earlier in the thread I don't think it is.

The pot is 5BB, 2BB to call, so of course you shouldn't set mine... Or should you? CO pretty much has to continue (having position and stack size) so if you do flop a set it shouldn't be difficult to get it AI for 47BB pot (if MP1 calls, the pot will be even bigger). If you miss, you can easily fold... Odds of flopping a set are 1:7, implied pot odds are 23.5:1, so mathematically set mining is correct here. (Personally I agree with everyone who said fold anyways, I'm a stooge :top

PS: Sorry if my math/terms are wrong :rofl: maybe you can teach me something

 

[No Brainer]

I think the most common scenario to play out if we were to hit our set would be something like

SB: 2,214 (9.2 bb)
Hero (BB): 5,340 (22.3 bb)
UTG+2: 4,080 (17 bb)
MP1: 10,953 (45.6 bb)
MP2: 3,454 (14.4 bb)
MP3: 5,840 (24.3 bb)
CO: 13,719 (57.2 bb)
BTN: 6,586 (27.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5 5
UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls 1bb, 2 folds, CO raises to 3bb, 2 folds, Hero calls 3bb, MP1 calls 3bb

Flop comes and we hit our set

Hero checks
MP1 checks
CO bets 5bb (half pot)
Hero shoves 19bb
MP1 folds
CO folds

This means that we pick up a 15bb pot and we jump to ~35bbs.

Just writing that out has kind of surprised me that even if we don't get stacks in we still get ourselves to a much more comfortable spot in the tournament.

So, lets re evaluate the scenario.

• We fold. We are left with 21bbs and still have a little to play with, hoping to pick up a decent spot in the next little while.
• We call and 85% of the time miss our set. We are left with 19bbs and need to find a good spot or pick up a good hand in the next couple of orbits.
• We call and 15% of the time we hit our set, say most of the time CO cbets and folds. We now have ~35bbs and are fairly comfortable.
• We call and hit our set, some of the time we manage to double up. We now have ~50bbs and are very comfortable.
• I think we have all agreed shoving here is bad even though ICMizer may find a way for it to be +EV in some situations.

I still think I prefer a fold, unless we were going to turn our hand into a bluff post flop when we miss our set but get a favourable board texture. bluffing in multiway pots can be a bad idea though.

 

[AviCKter]

I think the most common scenario to play out if we were to hit our set would be something like

SB: 2,214 (9.2 bb)
Hero (BB): 5,340 (22.3 bb)
UTG+2: 4,080 (17 bb)
MP1: 10,953 (45.6 bb)
MP2: 3,454 (14.4 bb)
MP3: 5,840 (24.3 bb)
CO: 13,719 (57.2 bb)
BTN: 6,586 (27.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5 5
UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls 1bb, 2 folds, CO raises to 3bb, 2 folds, Hero calls 3bb, MP1 calls 3bb

Flop comes and we hit our set

Hero checks
MP1 checks
CO bets 5bb (half pot)
Hero shoves 19bb
MP1 folds
CO folds

This means that we pick up a 15bb pot and we jump to ~35bbs.

Just writing that out has kind of surprised me that even if we don't get stacks in we still get ourselves to a much more comfortable spot in the tournament.

So, lets re evaluate the scenario.

• We fold. We are left with 21bbs and still have a little to play with, hoping to pick up a decent spot in the next little while.
• We call and 85% of the time miss our set. We are left with 19bbs and need to find a good spot or pick up a good hand in the next couple of orbits.
• We call and 15% of the time we hit our set, say most of the time CO cbets and folds. We now have ~35bbs and are fairly comfortable.
• We call and hit our set, some of the time we manage to double up. We now have ~50bbs and are very comfortable.
• I think we have all agreed shoving here is bad even though ICMizer may find a way for it to be +EV in some situations.

I still think I prefer a fold, unless we were going to turn our hand into a bluff post flop when we miss our set but get a favourable board texture. Bluffing in multiway pots can be a bad idea though.

Kind of depends on your own style of play, I suppose.

Just my opinion, I can be wrong (since I don't have any other information). You call another 2BB, MP1 is still in the hand. I don't think he's going to fold once he's getting the right price (if he does, he goes to my NOTE). Let's say you hit your set. You check, MP1 checks, the OR c-bets (5BB, in your example). You raise? Why would you do that? Unless and until the board is draw heavy, its useless to protect a monster; instead you're looking to extract more value, I hope.

Its this dynamics that makes it profitable; a limper(45BB), a semi-loose player(57BB) with position and small unsuspected holding.

Btw I never asked, is this any version of the fifty-fifty mtt? Or any kind of survival tournament (satellite, etc)?

 

[xxMorpheusxx]

I tried using Holdem Calc but I cannot get it to work for 3 bet shoves. Any one have it?

Just off feel, 5's are a call here, definitely not a jam. I'd probably jam 88 and maybe AJ for sure AQ though. It's profitable for set mining I just do it if I'm getting 20:1 on my money.

 

[No Brainer]

Kind of depends on your own style of play, I suppose.

COLOR="Blue"]You raise? Why would you do that? Unless and until the board is draw heavy, its useless to protect a monster; instead you're looking to extract more value, I hope.[/COLOR]

Its this dynamics that makes it profitable; a limper(45BB), a semi-loose player(57BB) with position and small unsuspected holding.

Btw I never asked, is this any version of the fifty-fifty mtt? Or any kind of survival tournament (satellite, etc)?

I think postflop here could be worthy of a new post as there are so many situations that could come up. Might try and find a similar spot and post it in the next couple days. No this is just a standard tournament, about 100 runners, top 12 paid and about 60 remaining.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I would need to know the tendencies of the CO. Some people like to "attack the limpers" and if he is that type of guy....then I would jam as a "re-steal" here essentially saying "My crap beats your crap" and you have a decent hand when you get called.

some players tend to limp along with limpers....if he is one of those guys....easy fold all day long.

and absent either read...the math points to a fold. pushing isn't terrible, but folding is better I think.

what would I jam here? I think AK+ and TT+. AQ and 99 would be the question hands for me.....I would have to take a read.