$25 Live MTT 100/200 Blinds open ended vs TPTK

1

12skin

Guest
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Total posts
69
7 handed, an hour or so into a MTT live tournament. I am BB and I get dealt 9 10o which I normally fold, but since I am on the BB and no one raised I get to see the flop. I cant remember everyones chip stacks but it was pretty much even with me being the short stack and villian the chip leader (he went all in 2nd hand with AK vs 77 and caught a K on the turn)

Action goes

UTG folds
UTG+1 limps (villian) [chip leader]
UTG+2 folds
Mid folds
CO limps
SB folds
BB checks (hero) [short stack]

$300 in pot

Flop is J Q 4 (suits don't matter as no one was going for the flush. It is strictly straight draw vs top pair analysis)

I now had the open ended draw possiblility and most of the guys at the table are easy to push out, so I push and raise $500 to which the villian re-raises me to 1500 chips.

(did I mention the villian is my friend?) so I know he plays only high cards and he probrobly has top pair.

The cutoff folds and I figure that the villian has top pair, since all he plays are face cards but that I have 8 outs on an open ended straight draw to beat him, and if I can pull this off, I will end up with a healthy amount of chips to continue the tournament with.

So I go all-in. Villian calls. I know I didn't have the odds to call but I only had 900 in chips left after my 500 raise, and the blinds were 100/200 so I was in a spot.

Villian shows QK and has TPTK and I still have 7 outs, then I hear someone at the table say, oh I folded an 8, so now I have only 6 outs, and then to the river and I am out of the tournament.

To be quite honest I do not remember what the last 2 cards were and it really doesn't matter. The play I am concerned about is number one, did I make the right or wrong move, even with the negative outcome, and secondly, Shouldn't my friend have either raised or folded his KQ being UTG+1? but instead he limped allowing me to make the mistake of betting when I saw a chance at the flop?

I see two things wrong here from a friendship point of view, vs a poker point of view. The first is that if he had such a strong hand, why would he not raise it, telling me he had something to which I could fold.

Secondly, if your friend is at the same table of the tournament, and you have a large, comfortable chip stack, if He shows aggressiveness do you just fold to him out of courtesy and vise versa? is there some sort of unwritten rule amongst friends? or is it every man for himself? Where does one draw the line when it comes to friends + competition? Because I would have yielded to him if the situations were reversed so we could both go on.

You see, I thought about his AKo preflop all-in call earlier and his chances against 77 - he only had 6 outs ( I know the 7s could have counterfieted but the chances of that arent that great). I figured I had more of a chance than that with my open ended straight draw. By him limping I saw no real signs of strenth from his hand, but at the same time, by his very limping I knew he had face card(s) because he only plays face cards.

Funny thing is I looked at my 910 and said, ooh, this hand is trouble when it was dealt.

I think my questions are:

Should I have checked the hand post flop?

Should I have folded when my friend raised 1500?

Should the Villian have raised KQ preflop?

Is there an unwritten rule amongst friends or am I an idiot?

Why do I always get these types of hands on the BB?
 
Last edited:
G

GermanFalcon

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Jan 28, 2007
Total posts
12
First of all, when I play poker, I'm going to win and go to war. No friends at the table to be friendly with. After the game is over we could discuss hands and have a drink.

I think as shortstack you have played correctly and took your chance.

KQ in early position and as chipleader I would also limp in. It is not as strong as you proclaimed and could be beaten by any A-rag.
 
Lafaena

Lafaena

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Total posts
85
You lead out with 500 into a 300 pot leaving yourself 900, and halfway commiting yourself.Not a good move. QJ4 is a flop that often hit early posistion limpers. Espesially not a good move when your opponent only plays facecards . I favor checking against a passive opponent with thoose stacks. Betting around 200 and pushing to a raise is also ok ,as it gives you fold equity. Overbetting only gets called by a better hand, and commits both of you to the pot. What would you do if he called and a blank hit the turn? you would have to check-fold to a push or semibluff and most likley be called.
 
1

12skin

Guest
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Feb 12, 2007
Total posts
69
I think my problem is that I am so used to online where you have to overbet in order to get anyone out of the pot and live it does not require as much betting to accomplish the same thing.

I was not concerned with the flop. (mistake) I was trying to steal the pot with the backup of a straight.
 
loopmeister

loopmeister

Rock Star
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Total posts
332
You see, I thought about his AKo preflop all-in call earlier and his chances against 77 - he only had 6 outs ( I know the 7s could have counterfieted but the chances of that arent that great). I figured I had more of a chance than that with my open ended straight draw.

Not really:
77 vs AK - AK has 45% chance of winning PF
OESD vs QK - QK has 72% chance of winning post flop
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Total posts
1,238
You and your friends not playing against each other is considered a mild form of cheating. It is called soft playing. Folding even when you have a strong/moderate hand to dump chips to a friend to keep them alive. Do it enough and someone may call you on it. Hard to prove but not a situation you want to get involved in. Something else to think about that goes on in friends minds while at the same table. Would you rather both be medium stacked and an average chance to finish in the money or dump what remaining chips you have to your friend so he can become a large stack and increase his chances of finishing well into the money?

Shortstacks always seem to have tough decisions becuase it is usually for all your chips so they seem harder. What if the situation was reverse and you hit top pair and he was on a draw. Would you blame him for calling if it did not really put a dent in his stack?

Blinds are 100/200, right? Shouldn't the pot be 600, 2 limpers and your BB at 200 each? 500 is a good size bet for that pot but 300-400 should do the same effect of getting people off the hand and save you that precious 100-200 more so you may still have enough to fold on the reraise.

Laying it down with 900 left and the SB of 100 next hand only leaves you around 800. That leaves you about 1 orbit left to really catch a hand to double up. I don't think either play is really wrong here. You saved yourself the last 1/2 hour of struggling and hoping to catch a decent hand to push with. You took your shot and missed on the draw to double up with more money in the pot. You fold and even if you double up once you will still be moderately short stacked.

Lots of people will limp with KQ from any position. I think the important part is you had correct read on him and he played the hand correctly too.
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Total posts
641
I dont get the 500 bet into a 300 (?) pot. What was that for?
He either has hit the flop, in which case your bet is only making yourself pay, or he didnt hit flop, in which case hed fold to a smaller bet.

Secondly, AK is a good hand to call all-ins with preflop because:

Its actually virtually a coinflip against any pair other than KK or AA.

He had 6 outs for 5 cards, flop, turn, and river. So he was only a bit less than 50% to win. ANd other reason for it being a good hand 2 call allins with is that youre a coinflip against a pair, but you dominate other hands like Aq or AJ that could go allin too. While you have only 2 cards, turn and river, to hit your 8 outs so youre only 30% to hit it.

As for limping it, i think its weird youd say he should have raised it to tell you he had a good hand lol.

1st Theres people other than you at table, and KQ isnt AA so it isnt that strong of a hand.

2nd I dont see why he should yield to you.

He hit his hand and you didnt. Its his hand. Hes 70% to win....

You should have bet smaller on flop, then fold when/if raised that big. Calling isnt terrible i guess if you dont like playing shortstacked.
 
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