22 with small blind all in

[mischman]

Lets say your hanfried and you have pocket 2's. Chuck(after just recieving a bad beat) is basically all in on the small blind. What do you do and why?

pokerstars Game #7959448224: Tournament #40656459, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (600/1200) - 2007/01/15 - 21:31:00 (ET)
Table '40656459 13' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: roevhullet (16268 in chips)
Seat 2: hanfried (49922 in chips) Pocket 2's
Seat 3: CCEngland6 (22636 in chips)
Seat 5: ChuckTs (1108 in chips)
Seat 6: pkrPlayerBR (18716 in chips)
Seat 8: Bono Voxx (10215 in chips)
roevhullet: posts the ante 75
hanfried: posts the ante 75
CCEngland6: posts the ante 75
ChuckTs: posts the ante 75
pkrPlayerBR: posts the ante 75
Bono Voxx: posts the ante 75
ChuckTs: posts small blind 600
pkrPlayerBR: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Bono Voxx: folds
roevhullet: folds
hanfried:????????????

 

[mrsnake3695]

Fold, Chuck has aces.

 

[stormswa]

ok

I voted raise but im still fine if you vote fold here, if you vote call though thats big mistake. Let me eloborate.


raising is fine because if he makes a play back at you then you can weigh your options and see if you want to flip for it. its either a flip or you are way behind.

I also dont mind folding because really there is only one flop you want to see and that is a 2 other then that any flop scares you.

 

[mischman]

Let me say it again and give more details, chuck cant even fully call the big blind.

Final 2 tables of a $11 180 seater, as you can see most people have between 10-25 times the big blind.

 

[shinedown.45]

I voted to call b/c IMO 22 is too small to raise and if he/I hit a 2 on the flop then game over for Chuck:evil:

 

[ChuckTs]

With his stack, I push. I think the value of eliminating the player makes up for the fact that 22 will basically be either a 4.5 to 1 dog or a 50/50 shot. It could go either way, though. Of course calling is out of the question.

 

[stormswa]

call?

you are 12% to hit your 2 which means 88% of the time you are throwing away that 1/2 the bet. And even if you hit your 2 that dosent mean you are getting paid off = long run losing money.

if he dosent even have enough to call the blinds then yea id raise everytime.

 

[mischman]

Ok my views.

Its that player A & B has player C all in so they just check it down to elimate him.

Folding- for whatever reason, blinds huge, people dont have a big M, whatever you fold

Calling- Call, you and the big blind just attempt to bust him, the check it down theory

Raising- You raise to isolate, you dont want the BB to come and in and take the pot, obv you will be a big(ger) dog with 4 overcards to your pocket 2's.

What happened, the player raised with 22, BB folded A8(said he had that). Chuck caught a K but the A8 would of won, the A8 BB was mad and commented that he should of limped and tried to bust him but is raising to try to take the BIG(Huge M rate) blinds down and go HU with chuck.

So what do you want to do?

 

[mischman]

you are 12% to hit your 2 which means 88% of the time you are throwing away that 1/2 the bet. And even if you hit your 2 that dosent mean you are getting paid off = long run losing money.

if he dosent even have enough to call the blinds then yea id raise everytime.

Were not trying and dont want to play a big pot with 22 and 4 overcards(from chuck and the big blind, obv if its gonna be a big pot the BB will be in) were just trying to bust chuck and get the pot/blinds

 

[stormswa]

huh

Were not trying and dont want to play a big pot with 22 and 4 overcards(from chuck and the big blind, obv if its gonna be a big pot the BB will be in) were just trying to bust chuck and get the pot/blinds

it wont be a big pot he dosent have enough in chips to make it a big pot. you have him outchipped 5-1.

so since you are playing like that what do you do when you dont hit your 2 check/fold? becuase like I said any flop that dosent hit a 2 is a scarry board.

 

[mischman]

Thats what were trying to discuss, should you call and play a pot with the 22 and chuck all in on the side and then check it down.

Or do you raise and go heads up with chuck and try to get the some 5k in teh pot since everyone has such a low M.

Were not discussing any post flop things

 

[stormswa]

Thats what were trying to discuss, should you call and play a pot with the 22 and chuck all in on the side and then check it down.

Or do you raise and go heads up with chuck and try to get the some 5k in teh pot since everyone has such a low M.

Were not discussing any post flop things

id rather raise, because I dont think the other player is going to check it down all the time. There is going to be a sidepot , like you said he cant even afford the whole blinds.

 

[mischman]

id rather raise, because I dont think the other player is going to check it down all the time. There is going to be a sidepot , like you said he cant even afford the whole blinds.

Yea, well obv he isnt going to check it down if he has a hand, and any hand has 22 beat(post flop).

I agree with raising and jsut going heads up with chuck to try to get the 5k in there since M is so low. The BB got mad for him raising since he would of eliminated chuck, but is it as cut as dry as call and check it down?

 

[ChuckTs]

Oops I'm getting another hand completely mixed up with this one....I don't think limping to try to knock me out is a bad play at all.

He's got a huge stack and the limp would be with the intention of knocking me out by checking it down w/ BB (and also possibly winning a pot from BB if he hits the set), and not for the purpose of winning the blinds. I like a call, check down here.

I'm gettin tired and my brain aint workin too well :/ I'll try and elaborate tomorrow.

 

[joosebuck]

if this is the final table, call and check down. still 14~+ players raise and hope to isolate and get the dead blind money

 

[stormswa]

see

here is the problem I have with it, why call and just basicly give your money away one of the 2 all in guys are most likley going to beat you. I would rather see u fold and let other big stack try to take out the all in guy.


so I still stick by folding or raising.

 

[mischman]

Oops I'm getting another hand completely mixed up with this one....I don't think limping to try to knock me out is a bad play at all.

He's got a huge stack and the limp would be with the intention of knocking me out by checking it down w/ BB (and also possibly winning a pot from BB if he hits the set), and not for the purpose of winning the blinds. I like a call, check down here.

I'm gettin tired and my brain aint workin too well :/ I'll try and elaborate tomorrow.

Calling a portion of your chips off with 22 to catch a set is a good play?

Calling- you call, your pretty much dead in the water agaisnt 4 over cards unless you catch your 2.Focus on the M, you dont have enough chips to try and catch a flop in these tournaments.

the Sidepot with the BB will only be like 300 chips.

your ~12%(at best) to catch a set.

 

[mischman]

here is the problem I have with it, why call and just basicly give your money away one of the 2 all in guys are most likley going to beat you. I would rather see u fold and let other big stack try to take out the all in guy.


so I still stick by folding or raising.

Agree, the whole calling lets check it down IMO is horrible.

~~~~The thing that sparked me to post this was the BB got mad cause he didnt do that and most people would at first glance prbly think, lets bust the shortstack, call and check it down.~~~~

 

[joosebuck]

it depends, im happy to call & check down, although probably not from such an early position after taking another look at the hand. youd be suprised how everyone will check down all ins at final tables. when the money goes up by $1500 when someone gets knocked out, it's very much a good business move to do what you can to get them out.

in the last final table mtt i was in, the shortstack pushed all in (with only 2bb) so i called with J5o after 2 more callers called before me, just to maximize our chances of knocking him out. And I also ended up flopping 2 pair.

 

[Ghoundai]

You fold. Here is why: 50% of the time, you double him if he has overs. 80% of the you double him if he has a higher pair. The bigblind will call him anyways he has less than one bet. Even if he wins the hand you haven't given him extra ammo and can wait until he pushes at the wrong time.

 

[beardyian]

Your chip leader with twice as many chips as anyone else - raise enough to scare off the majority but also leave your self able to lay it down if you end up massively dominated

Maybe 5 or 6,000 raise

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Pretty easy raise - isolate vs Chuck and a probable coinflip with dead money from the BB in there.

Even if Chuck wins he has like ~3BBs and is still having to shove something before the blinds hit again - whoop-dee-doodle-doo.

 

[zebranky]

the key issue HAS to be whether you can get a check-down from the BB player. If you can, eliminating the short-stack is your only goal, so a check-down makes sense. I still vote for a flat call, but if the BB raises, you have to fold. You're not losing that many chips on this one - a little over 2% of your stack.
If I'm the chip leader, I'm willing to play weak and sacrifice my 1200 chips for a chance to eliminate a player. If I was the BB player, I would want a check-down regardless of the hand I'm holding (at least until the river). Both players should only be betting a monster hand, because the chips are in a lot of ways secondary to eliminating the short stack.

Any reads on the Aggression level of the BB player? your hand isn't the problem, it's whether you think you will have to pay more than 1200 chips, so his aggression should be your deciding factor.

 

[robwhufc]

zebranky, please cease contributing to the hand analysis threads until the team event has concluded. ()

 

[zebranky]

zebranky, please cease contributing to the hand analysis threads until the team event has concluded. ()

In that case, let me say publicly that I withdraw my comments. if I were you, I'd push all-in to scare off the BB player, and play heads up.
I would also "chat" the BB player and let him know you have 22 to make sure he knows he is dominated and will fold.

good enough, Mein Kapitan?