[$22 rebuy] Shove with T4s

Irexes

Irexes

Legend
As a follow up to this thread https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/22-rebuy-resteal-all-j2o-140981/, here's another interesting spot. 90 left of 648, average stack 55k.

shaundeeb shoves over a bunch of limpers. He's playing with his cards face up, but to be honest I think it's a great play.

Converted, then unconverted HH below.

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HAND #1
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poker stars, $22 Buy-in (1,000/2,000 blinds, 200 ante) NL Hold'em Tourney, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
UTG: 31,802 (15.9 bb)
UTG+1: 77,993 (39 bb)
MP1: 31,900 (16 bb)
MP2: 19,430 (9.7 bb)
MP3: 67,321 (33.7 bb)
BTN: 44,960 (22.5 bb)
Hero (SB): 83,495 (41.7 bb)
BB: 58,231 (29.1 bb)
CO: 32,642 (16.3 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 6
club.gif
9
heart.gif

CO calls 2,000, UTG calls 2,000, UTG+1 calls 2,000, MP1 calls 2,000, 2 folds, BTN raises to 44,760 and is all-in, 2 folds, CO calls 30,442 and is all-in, 3 folds
Flop: (75,684) Q
spade.gif
A
spade.gif
8
heart.gif
(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: (75,684) T
spade.gif
(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Results: 75,684 pot
CO showed J
diamond.gif
A
diamond.gif
(a pair of Aces) and won 75,684 (43,042 net)
BTN showed T
club.gif
4
club.gif
(a pair of Tens) and lost (-32,642 net)



pokerstars Game #24341264172: Tournament #136340179, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2009/01/27 18:06:26 ET
Table '136340179 10' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: filakismenos (31802 in chips)
Seat 2: nicky0609 (77993 in chips)
Seat 3: Delloor (31900 in chips)
Seat 4: SQD920 (19430 in chips)
Seat 5: LE CATHARE (67321 in chips)
Seat 6: shaundeeb (44960 in chips)
Seat 7: Irexes (83495 in chips)
Seat 8: Marius2910 (58231 in chips)
Seat 9: Bafaym (32642 in chips)
filakismenos: posts the ante 200
nicky0609: posts the ante 200
Delloor: posts the ante 200
SQD920: posts the ante 200
LE CATHARE: posts the ante 200
shaundeeb: posts the ante 200
Irexes: posts the ante 200
Marius2910: posts the ante 200
Bafaym: posts the ante 200
Irexes: posts small blind 1000
Marius2910: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Irexes [6c 9h]
Bafaym: calls 2000
filakismenos: calls 2000
nicky0609: calls 2000
Delloor: calls 2000
SQD920: folds
LE CATHARE: folds
shaundeeb: raises 42760 to 44760 and is all-in
Irexes: folds
Marius2910: folds
Bafaym: calls 30442 and is all-in
filakismenos: folds
nicky0609: folds
Delloor: folds
Uncalled bet (12318) returned to shaundeeb
*** FLOP *** [Qs As 8h]
*** TURN *** [Qs As 8h] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [Qs As 8h Ts] [9s]
Delloor said, "Why did I expect you to push some rubbish hand.."
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Bafaym: shows [Jd Ad] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
shaundeeb: shows [Tc 4c] (a pair of Tens)
Bafaym collected 75684 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 75684 | Rake 0
Board [Qs As 8h Ts 9s]
Seat 1: filakismenos folded before Flop
Seat 2: nicky0609 folded before Flop
Seat 3: Delloor folded before Flop
Seat 4: SQD920 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: LE CATHARE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: shaundeeb (button) showed [Tc 4c] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 7: Irexes (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Marius2910 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Bafaym showed [Jd Ad] and won (75684) with a straight, Eight to Queen

Looking at his OPR the interesting thing for me is that he is 4th in 2008 yet has an ITM of 14% (a lot lower than a lot of winning players).

My view is that his ability to make plays like the one above sees him bust lot, but when he cashes he is in shape to make good final tables and score big.

I won't elaborate on my rationale for his play just yet.
 
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NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Whereas your other friend who limp/called has yet to win since he opened his Stars account this month.

There's 6 1/2 or so BBs of potentially dead money in the pot; if he had folded would you have made the same move?
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Not with my stack (too much value in folding and looking for better spots) and to be honest I don't think I'd have had the balls to do it with T4s either :)
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Awards
9
The guy must own a fleet of wheelbarrows.:eek: He'd need em to carry them juevos!

I see this done often, too often these moves hit. Makes me wonder where 'brilliant' and 'donk' intersect?

I have been thinking lately that after several limps the shove might be profitable, even with lesser cards than hero had here, but my balls are not nearly so big (only need a skateboard) and I haven't made this move yet.
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Love this play with/without the limpers...

I'd rather be first in, but punishing high-blind limpers is just as fun. As another pointed out, the limp/call with AJ is worthy of tossing your laptop out the window when this move fails because of someone's inability to fold.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

Legend
Awards
4
As a follow up to this thread https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/22-rebuy-resteal-all-j2o-140981/, here's another interesting spot. 90 left of 648, average stack 55k.

shaundeeb shoves over a bunch of limpers. He's playing with his cards face up, but to be honest I think it's a great play.

Converted, then unconverted HH below.

--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------
Poker Stars, $22 Buy-in (1,000/2,000 blinds, 200 ante) NL Hold'em Tourney, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
UTG: 31,802 (15.9 bb)
UTG+1: 77,993 (39 bb)
MP1: 31,900 (16 bb)
MP2: 19,430 (9.7 bb)
MP3: 67,321 (33.7 bb)
BTN: 44,960 (22.5 bb)
Hero (SB): 83,495 (41.7 bb)
BB: 58,231 (29.1 bb)
CO: 32,642 (16.3 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 6
club.gif
9
heart.gif

CO calls 2,000, UTG calls 2,000, UTG+1 calls 2,000, MP1 calls 2,000, 2 folds, BTN raises to 44,760 and is all-in, 2 folds, CO calls 30,442 and is all-in, 3 folds
Flop: (75,684) Q
spade.gif
A
spade.gif
8
heart.gif
(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: (75,684) T
spade.gif
(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Results: 75,684 pot
CO showed J
diamond.gif
A
diamond.gif
(a pair of Aces) and won 75,684 (43,042 net)
BTN showed T
club.gif
4
club.gif
(a pair of Tens) and lost (-32,642 net)



PokerStars Game #24341264172: Tournament #136340179, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2009/01/27 18:06:26 ET
Table '136340179 10' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: filakismenos (31802 in chips)
Seat 2: nicky0609 (77993 in chips)
Seat 3: Delloor (31900 in chips)
Seat 4: SQD920 (19430 in chips)
Seat 5: LE CATHARE (67321 in chips)
Seat 6: shaundeeb (44960 in chips)
Seat 7: Irexes (83495 in chips)
Seat 8: Marius2910 (58231 in chips)
Seat 9: Bafaym (32642 in chips)
filakismenos: posts the ante 200
nicky0609: posts the ante 200
Delloor: posts the ante 200
SQD920: posts the ante 200
LE CATHARE: posts the ante 200
shaundeeb: posts the ante 200
Irexes: posts the ante 200
Marius2910: posts the ante 200
Bafaym: posts the ante 200
Irexes: posts small blind 1000
Marius2910: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Irexes [6c 9h]
Bafaym: calls 2000
filakismenos: calls 2000
nicky0609: calls 2000
Delloor: calls 2000
SQD920: folds
LE CATHARE: folds
shaundeeb: raises 42760 to 44760 and is all-in
Irexes: folds
Marius2910: folds
Bafaym: calls 30442 and is all-in
filakismenos: folds
nicky0609: folds
Delloor: folds
Uncalled bet (12318) returned to shaundeeb
*** FLOP *** [Qs As 8h]
*** TURN *** [Qs As 8h] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [Qs As 8h Ts] 9♠
Delloor said, "Why did I expect you to push some rubbish hand.."
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Bafaym: shows [Jd Ad] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
shaundeeb: shows [Tc 4c] (a pair of Tens)
Bafaym collected 75684 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 75684 | Rake 0
Board [Qs As 8h Ts 9s]
Seat 1: filakismenos folded before Flop
Seat 2: nicky0609 folded before Flop
Seat 3: Delloor folded before Flop
Seat 4: SQD920 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: LE CATHARE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: shaundeeb (button) showed [Tc 4c] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 7: Irexes (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Marius2910 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Bafaym showed [Jd Ad] and won (75684) with a straight, Eight to Queen

Looking at his OPR the interesting thing for me is that he is 4th in 2008 yet has an ITM of 14% (a lot lower than a lot of winning players).

My view is that his ability to make plays like the one above sees him bust lot, but when he cashes he is in shape to make good final tables and score big.

I won't elaborate on my rationale for his play just yet.


Ok, I have one thing to ask, you stated that he's been doing this play when many ppl limp in to steal the dead money?

I like the concept behind the play, yet the thing that makes no sense is the fact that ppl were actually starting to limp-in, in hopes of catching this player doing such a simliar play. So should'nt this player realize with so many limpers, that someone had his hand crushed?

Now I believe that this play might've been pulled of "If this guy's image on the table was Tight/Aggressive, or if this player was only know for pushing with only premo hands, am I correct in the way i'm thinking this through:confused: ? Seriously this play is an excellent play, but only under the correct/precise circumstances, and I don't think it was a well thought up plan?

But heck what do I know? I don't play these levels:) .

Plz let me know if my theory is flawed:D
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
This was the first time he'd done it (in this tourney) but from where I was sitting it looked fairly transparent as a "move". The advantage of course is that even if you spot it, it's incredibly hard to call with the range that would open-limp or call a limp, particularly with others left to act who may increasingly feel priced in.
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Without the limpers?

I'll bite, what's the thinking in doing that?

Preflop 2000+1000+9x200 = 3800; BTN (44K) has around 11BBs+-? Without the limpers pot still = ~10% of stack. 44K here is short. Pure steal situation and I am pushing with any two cards for a free round.

If I am called, I am banking on 2 live cards. Bubble is looming (64 with 680) I am guessing, normal tightening at this point. I don't want to cash, I want to make the final table... or bust out trying.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Button has 22 big blinds (you may mean big bets but it's still plenty), open shoving there would be nasty as the calling range of the SB and BB is much wider than the calling range of the limpers in the OP.

Even from a chip EV point of view you are getting called more than 1 in 10 and are crushed when you are. When you win the blinds it's not making much of a difference to your $EV.
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Button has 22 big blinds (you may mean big bets but it's still plenty), open shoving there would be nasty as the calling range of the SB and BB is much wider than the calling range of the limpers in the OP.

Even from a chip EV point of view you are getting called more than 1 in 10 and are crushed when you are. When you win the blinds it's not making much of a difference to your $EV.

You simply ignore the antes? If you think you have 22bbs here, you're sorely mistaken and actually thinking -EV. Without the antes.. I agree, 22bbs. The push is a semi bluff, calling for.. you have 85K, half of your stack because your range is wider, is guessing.
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Discussing this further with you would be -EV.

LOL... you're telling the community that when blinds and antes cost 2000+1000+1800 per orbit or T3,800, a player that has T44,900 has T22bbs.

Do the math for me so I can understand. Oh, don't forget, in 5-12 minutes, I am guessing, the blinds go up?
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Read this again (or indeed for the first time)

Button has 22 big blinds (you may mean big bets but it's still plenty), open shoving there would be nasty as the calling range of the SB and BB is much wider than the calling range of the limpers in the OP.

^^ Big blind = 2000. Stack = 44000.

Total = 22 big blinds.

I said in my post you may be referring to big bets (normally a ring term), but even then it's still deep as it's the same ratio
 
Dwilius

Dwilius

CardsChat Regular
Awards
34
Big blinds are big blinds, if you want to use M or w/e then use it...but you came up with 11 which doesn't take antes into account antes you just doubled the bb. I guess you could say there are ~14 effective big blinds* when comparing to non anted play, but I think most tourney posts are going to be late in the game and antes are a given...and afaik the ante/blind ratio stays close to the same.

* 2000+1000+1800= 4800 would kind of be the same as 3200/1600 without antes.
 
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C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Just out of interest, what is it you think bb stands for?

Oh.. and my bad... 2000+1000+9x200 = T4800.. so... BTN should be pushing ANY TWO CARDS with no limpers bar none.

OK.. in tournaments, Big Blinds (bb) are
1: the larger of the blinds, usually double the small blind.
2: a calculator (M)(CPR)(CPO)(BB) as to determine the blind out rate (in oribits), at a given point. Without antes, an acceptable equation is chipstack/big blind, however, the presence of antes, alters the calculation and that difference depends on 6, 9, or 10 players for full table. A further re-calculation occurs shorthanded, usually defined as Effective M.

Antes matter.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Your 2nd definition is not, anywhere, ever referred to as bb.

Setting that aside (and apology for being a tool accepted btw) I disagree about the shove.
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

...
Awards
1
Not to step on toes or in the middle of an argument but the button's effective M is 10.2=44,960/[1000+2000+200(9)] Far from desperate.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Not to step on toes or in the middle of an argument but the button's effective M is 10.2=44,960/[1000+2000+200(9)] Far from desperate.

Exactly. Stealing light is a good idea, but this is not instashove atc territory. Which is why the squeeze with added equity is a nice play.
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Effective M of 10 isn't desperate? LOL.. if the blinds are 5 hours long!

I come from a different point of view, I guess.... let's say I have T45,000 and I get AK UTG and the pot is T4800 to go preflop, and I raise 3xBB or 6,000. Pot is T10,800. I get called. Pot is T16,800.

I now have T39000 and the pot... well... that's a nice pot, if I want it, I am going to c-bet half my stack.... blah.. blah..

If I am raising only 6000 there, I am an idiot...

I am pushing my AK, aren't I? Why, because I have no room (chips) to play poker without esentially pot-committing myself at the flop. I'd rather win the pot preflop, if possible.

10bb = no room to play poker

All in or fold. BTN made a good effort and was called by ... AJ, for god sakes.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
1) It's not 10bb.

2) You said you'd push any two cards on the button, we weren't discussing AK utg (though I still disagree with your above post).

3) M = 10 isn't desperate

4) You will go on and on and on about this forever won't you

5) Ever won anything?
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
I can bench press 250? Can you? Yes, my ROI is positive, not as good as I want, but my plasma TV and laptop are the fruits of my hobby.

10bbs on the button or UTG is 10bbs.. and yes, if it's folded to me, I am pushing any two cards with 20bb or less, live or online if the blind levels are short. 10-12 minutes online; 15-25 Live.

The OP fails to mention the blind level times. Most online tournaments, blind levels for fast tournaments are 6-10 minutes and the "slow", deepstack are 12-20.

10 bbs with 15 minute blinds v. 10 bbs with 7 minute blinds are universes apart...
 
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