$215 NLHE MTT: sunday mill, assigning range on a limp/reraiser really deep,

[ManicLombax]

peel the reraise imo

By that, you mean flat the 5-bet here? What's the plan on the flop? He's only got a 1/2 pot bet left behind effective.

 

[Pascal-lf]

obviously not, peel the 3bet. 4betting seems completely pointless given you look so ridic strong and you have position

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

johnboy, what you're saying is it's good if he hasn't got aces and bad if he does...I guess if he turns his cards over before someone acts then we can follow your inspiring advice

peel the reraise imo

No, I'm saying he has Aces.

 

[Pascal-lf]

he doesn't have aces 100% of the time here. it's pretty villain dependent, plenty of spew fish do this with a much wider but still strong range. even so, 4betting lets him fold a ton of stuff because everyone knows limp 3betting looks strong. you can then just call down pretty much all boards unless he goes crazy

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

Let's face it, after he limp 3-bets and proceeds to call a 6-bet shove and 2 Kings are out of the deck, he has Aces close to 100% of the time.

 

[pat3392]

It is ridiculous that people here are saying, "I'm not good enough to fold this" Why are you even trying to get better if you don't even attempt to plug your leaks?

I'm fairly sure it's +EV to get it in here but, barring any reason suggesting otherwise. If he's bad enough to take this line with AA, he's bad enough to take this line enough with all sorts of crap.

That being said, I don't see a whole lot of value with the 4bet. You either get a bunch of money, dreading he's got AA, or some awkward post-flop scenario occurs with you having initiative not really knowing how thin you can go. Flat the 3bet, keep his range wide and allow yourself to capitalize on your position/skill advantage whilst deepish, and give him initiative behind a strong line to allow him to lynch himself.

 

[ManicLombax]

Seems to me the value in a 4 bet with KK is we get more money in preflop. If he's as bad as we're assuming, then he'll call with all kinds of things we have crushed.

 

[baudib1]

He has AA 100%.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Let's face it, after he limp 3-bets and proceeds to call a 6-bet shove and 2 Kings are out of the deck, he has Aces close to 100% of the time.

that's why we should flat his 3bet

 

[ManicLombax]

that's why we should flat his 3bet

Seems possibly reasonable, but could you explain more? If we think we "know" he has aces here after he 5-bets, I'm not quite clear on how it's better to avoid that situation by flatting the 3bet. We have less information now. Granted we're in position, so that's good, but if we flat, and he goes nuts betting into us on board with no ace, I don't think we're ever getting away. If the board does have an ace, and he still goes nuts, we can probably fold, but we could very well have let him suck out with AQ/AK for cheap.

Seems like we get more information, and possibly more money more often, if we small 4-bet here. Open to arguments though.

 

[Karkus77]

It is ridiculous that people here are saying, "I'm not good enough to fold this" Why are you even trying to get better if you don't even attempt to plug your leaks?

its just a saying, chill out

 

[duggs]

obviously not, peel the 3bet. 4betting seems completely pointless given you look so ridic strong and you have position

sorry you might need to spell it out for me, 99-QQ AA AK range for limp/3betting, is it a bad assumption that opponents that limp/3bet wont fold to a 4bet ever? so that if we 4bet and they flat, which should happen alot of the time, we have them crushed. I see the advantages of flatting and keeping their range wide on the 3bet, but that assumes they are folding to a 4bet some decent % of the time doesnt it?

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

Yeah I agree here that 4 bet folding is the way forward. I guess you can flat to set mine, I may even call a flop bet, but probably folding if he barrells the turn.

 

[Pascal-lf]

because he knows that limp reraising is strong. so when we 4bet, it shows our hand as really strong, and people don't 4bet bluff limp reraises like ever. his limp 3betting range can be pretty wide, people do it with AQ, TT, QJs, etc after limping and getting fed up of being bullied, so we flat to keep these hands in his range as he'll fold them when we 4bet because we look so strong. you want to keep his range as open as possible.

you should never be raising for information, especially not 4betting.

 

[baudib1]

yeah, I think once we 4-bet we should just go with it. It's really rare that we should ever fold in an MTT after 4-betting any hand, especially KK.

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

So best play 2 just call his limpreraise in position here