€20 NLHE MTT Turbo: Do we consider this a slam dunk call

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Ianmacca99

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Final table 7 remaining $840 up top got $85 locked up

Blinds 15k/30k 2k ante

UTG+1 630k opens to 65k

Folds to hero on button 940k with 5s 5h who calls

SB 580k calls
BB folds

Flop
Js 9c 5c

SB checks. UTG+1 cbets 85k
Hero raises to 275k
SB shoves
UTG folds
Hero??
I feel pocket 5s is fine to flat here in position to set mine.
Once we have hit this flop hard it's a wet board I feel a shove is driving out all dominated hands but a raise is definitely in order. I feel I simply need to snap this off

I hadn't seen either villan get out of line and both been playing straightforward
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
I think, this one is kind of close. You definitely cant call just to try and flop a set, but there are other ways to win the pot as well, when you have position. The issue with calling is, you set the SB up for a perfect jamming spot with these stack sizes, and maybe BB as well, if he was similarly short. So calling cant be that bad, but its not only to flop a set, and I would not hate a fold either.

Flop
Pot was 239k, and UTG bet 85k or around 1/3 pot. UTG has 480 left so only a little over a pot sized bet, since when you call, pot is going to be 409k. I think, any raise here commits you to the pot, and whenever that is the case, you might as well shove. So for me this is a spot, where I either jam or just call the C-bet.

There are some merits to both options. Jamming is easy and clearly profitable. If UTG has an overpair or top pair, he is not bet-folding with 21BB effective, and if he has a draw, you dont even care, if he fold, since it protects your hand. So against him I lean towards just getting it in now and be done. I am not concerned about keeping his bluffs alive, because with these stack sizes, he dont have room for much more than a 1-and-done shot.

Jamming does allow SB to get away from a lot of hands though, so against him it is probably better to just call and allow him to get involved more liberally, even though there are some turn cards, you dont like to see. As played yeah this is an easy call. We are not looking to fold bottom set on the flop, when no straight or flush is possible, and our opponent only has 19BB to start the hand. If he has a better set, then congratulations to him.
 
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kkonicke

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I think you played it right. Preflop was a bit more sketch, but once you hit the set it's a pretty easy get it in spot. There's tons of worse hands villain can have.
 
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Ianmacca99

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I think I can't do anything apart from call as played sure I could of let it go pre SB ended up having JJ which I didn't expect
 
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300HPGOD

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I am fine with the call pre depending on the types of villains in the blinds. SB has a shove stack and BB stack is not given but they could have one as well. If they dont seem like aggressive players than I am fine with calling here even just set mining as the raise is just over min raise and if anyone raises behind I am folding but if even one comes along it sweetens the implied odds enough to set mine here imo.

The real question of this hand is should we raise on the flop? By the time action gets to us on the button after the flop I have made up my mind I am getting my chips in here so we just have to devise the best way to do it and get the most value doing it. I actually think all plays (calling, raising to an amount you did, and jamming) are fine but I think there are better choices among them. Jamming is the easiest, least variance, but I also think you will get some folds with this play. Especially if opponents know anything about ICM and the other stacks at the table I think you might even get like QJ or J10 to fold here and thats not want we want. a SB club draw might even fold here and we dont want that either. Raising to a size you did is not bad but it is a move of strength so some hands may fold that we dont want to. Considering after their bet on the flop UTG+1 will have 480k ish left and SB if they called behind us would have 420k ish left and the pot if all called would be 494k then we can get it on the turn which would be my plan on this hand. Calling keeps in the most crap from others and still allows us to shove turn under pot. Even if SB doesnt call we can still slightly overshove pot on turn even when checked to. If SB were to raise after I called (as they would in this hand) then I would get it in. I would also note that even if a club came on the turn I would not be folding my hand. I would be planning to get this in on the turn no matter what card comes.

As played when the SB shoves I would be thinking of 99 as a possibilty (never JJ as that should have shoved pre and prob 99 should have too) but its not enough of a possibility and this would take me about 5 seconds or so to hit the call button. We made up our minds that we are going with our hand (imo we are) once the flop hits so if this is the way the chips get in then thats the way they get in. I would be fully planning on having them in on the turn anyway.
 
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Sidetracked

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I don't think I am ever folding a set on the flop in Holdem. Omaha, maybe, but not Holdem.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Specifically at the FT and in a multiway pot, I am folding bottom set on this flop.

I dont hate the flat with 55s in position preflop. If we get squeezed, so what, we fold and lose 2bb - if we 3bet ourselves we risk being 4bet off our equity and we are going to whiff alot of flops, cbet, and potentially lose more than our 3bet pre - so for the sake of saving chops here, I would either flat or fold the 55s.

That said when the SB - who has the LEAST amount invested and the shortest stack of all 3 of us calls also...alarm bells are already going off in my head - it's more beneficial to the small blind to let you and the UTG stack battle it out so hopefully he can cripple you or you can bust him - thus netting the SB a pay jump, so the fact he is willing to get involved OOP multiway should signify a pretty strong hand. AQo, AJs, 99+ something along those lines.

Anyhow, most of the time when we are multiway there is NEVER a cbet in the middle, even if it comes from the original raiser - this spot is different because there is a wider gap between UTG and the BTN, therefor they get to cbet broadway ranged boards quite often OOP.

Anyhow, doubt the guy knows this so feels like it's just a blind cbet - raising here is totally fine to deny equity to flush and straight draw combos and also to try and get the pot heads up with the UTG opener - flatting here would've been fine too, try to keep the SB range involved and play a bigger pot -- id rather prefer this approach mid game when we are trying to accumulate chips and build a stack - while here at the FT I heavily prefer your raise on this flop texture.

Then we get the bad news...think about the actions preflop and what I said it means when the SB gets involved in this hand. Then think about the SB checking, seeing a cbet and a raise in front if them...yet they still go all in. That's the biggest �� ever!! Both of us have them covered...which means if they are to get called - and with this action in front it's pretty likely they will be -- when they are called they risk elimination. So what do you think they are doing this with?? AJ? Doubtful. Are they doing this with QT of clubs? Maybe...but that's your best case scenario, and even then they have massive equity in the hand and aren't dead. All that said, for me, this is ALWAYS 99s or JJs. No reason for JJs to squeeze preflop and risk being called off for their tournament life. ICMIZER would likely tell us NOT to shove JJs here preflop, and quit obviously we are too strong to fold such a hand preflop. 99s are speculative but can be considered a fold pre simply because as stated earlier, they don't have to get involved since we already have and we cover the UTG raiser - so it benefits the shorties more when bigger stacks go to war.

Anyhow, in conclusion - our flat preflop is 50/50 - on 40bb id probably flat the BTN too -- the SB calling preflop should raise concerns because of icm implications and they risk being eliminated by either one of us -- then post flop action is the key to this hand - the SB should never be 3bet shoving this flop with worse than bottom set - therefor, since we cannot beat anything the SB would do this with, we just make the disciplined fold.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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I think I can't do anything apart from call as played sure I could of let it go pre SB ended up having JJ which I didn't expect


The SB played JJs exactly like they were supposed to on their stack size. Its proper icm play and the FT is where most players make the most mistakes. If there were other stacks shorter than the SB around - then it's lighting money on fire if they go broke before the other shorter stacks do. Point is at the FT we want to avoid big flips and spots where we could be crushed - so we don't put ourselves at risk alot until we are the shortest guy at the table. It doesn't mean we never get to apply pressure, just means we have to be careful. We are no longer mid game anymore and to secure the best ROI for our time we have to adjust strategy according to icm implications.

Again, my breakdown showcases how and why the SB shows up with a monster here. Maybe in $5 games and under fools would 3b shove AJ or QT of clubs on this flop multiway....but in any game where players are halfway competent, that's not happening and they are only shoving nutted combos. SB played this hand perfectly, and by us not ranging them properly we took a big ding when it mattered most. Likely went broke too early and lost $$ instead of making the most of our opportunity.
 
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Ianmacca99

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The SB played JJs exactly like they were supposed to on their stack size. Its proper icm play and the FT is where most players make the most mistakes. If there were other stacks shorter than the SB around - then it's lighting money on fire if they go broke before the other shorter stacks do. Point is at the FT we want to avoid big flips and spots where we could be crushed - so we don't put ourselves at risk alot until we are the shortest guy at the table. It doesn't mean we never get to apply pressure, just means we have to be careful. We are no longer mid game anymore and to secure the best ROI for our time we have to adjust strategy according to icm implications.

Again, my breakdown showcases how and why the SB shows up with a monster here. Maybe in $5 games and under fools would 3b shove AJ or QT of clubs on this flop multiway....but in any game where players are halfway competent, that's not happening and they are only shoving nutted combos. SB played this hand perfectly, and by us not ranging them properly we took a big ding when it mattered most. Likely went broke too early and lost $$ instead of making the most of our opportunity.


Thanks for the analysis I played JJ as just a call preflop at an FT last night myself. Every day is a school day and you learn from previous experience

Thanks
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Thanks for the analysis I played JJ as just a call preflop at an FT last night myself. Every day is a school day and you learn from previous experience

Thanks


No doubt! I used to make massive mistakes at the FT and once I started fixing those I started cashing 3rd place or better ALOT more often than before. Finding those spots, playing properly and such to secure money hops will just make you more long term.

We all make mistakes, it's just worse is we never learn from them - I rejammed JJs on a FT of an ACR 30k and knew it was a mistake and with the icm pressure involved that if I were to get called I would be either be crushed or flipping with AK and villan called off with QQs so - it happens. If I wouldve played properly, I still would've lost the hand and some chips, but I wouldn't have been out of the tournament and maybe could've secured another money hop worth about $250.

Tons of players are going broke in your example - when in reality the SB should never be doing this with worse so we actually have an easy - yet painful - fold.
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Specifically at the FT and in a multiway pot, I am folding bottom set on this flop.
I call BS on your fold - but if so - you are also getting bluffed off your hand often in this spot with TPTK and 2 pair hand.

I had a similar hand to this just the other day, although I 3bet QQ on the button - get called by UTG aggro with the big stack on the table.
I flop middle set on AQ3 rainbow board. Checked to me - I cbet flop get shoved on, make the call - and the aggro UTG has A/K, turn is a K and the river is an Ace.

As Doug Polk says - don't fold sets.
 
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