$2 NLHE Turbo: KK hits set in MP, mid stages of SnG on FTP

[Always_Raise_U]

$2 NL HE Turbo: KK hits set in MP, mid stages of SnG on FTP

I'm in the mid stages of the SnG in middle position, and I see a pair of cowboys, I just thank mother luck (since It's the 3rd in the SnG AND the 2nd in a row), hop on my horse and rush to battle with my 2 friends ! (UTG is a loose-aggressive type of player)

Stacks:
* UTG with 4275
* MP with 3190
* CO with 1785
* BTN with 1255
* SB with 1765
* BB with 1230

Blinds:
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to MP:K♠ K♣
* * Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
* * UTG calls [100]
* * Hero raises to 400
* * CO calls [400]
* * 3 players fold.
* * UTG calls [300]
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: 1350
Flop:
* * J♦ K♦ 6♠
* * UTG checks
* * Hero bets [2,790, and is all in]
* * 2 players fold.
Uncalled bet of 2,790 returned to Hero Hero wins the pot (1,350)
* * Total folds this street: 2


I raise to 4BB, get 2 callers and WHAM, a new cowboy friend come to my help. Now that I take a look at it, I can't help but think that this line was far from being optimal, I think I was afraid of someone drawing to a diamond flush and decided to remove all the potential difficult decisions on this hand, sure everyone folds and I'm happy to win a 1350 chips pot but I think that I might have won more chips from UTG if I had simply bet about 2/3 - 3/4 pot protecting my hand...

I would have had the same effect on the small stack since he would have pushed with a draw (against the odds) or a weaker hand AND maybe UTG might have called the bet just to see if he hits something...

How would you have played this hand AND on which range did you see UTG since he limp/called knowing he's loose ?

TIA,

P.S. The thing about the cowboy is humor, please don't flame if it's not funny

 

[Jillychemung]

With the ST8 draw and flush draw I don't fault you for the overbet shove. You don't want the bet small enough such that if CO calls it gives UTG odds to come along. So bet 1/2 your remaining stack - 1400.

 

[ChuckTs]

I think I was afraid of someone drawing to a diamond flush and decided to remove all the potential difficult decisions on this hand

Well this is pretty much it right there. You're taking a line that guarantees you charge them, gets money in the pot, removes all scary decisions on the turn, but it comes at the price of forcing out many weaker hands that could call one bet and potentially commit themselves.

They don't only have draws in their range; they'll have Jx, sometimes the case king, and sometimes AT/AQ that may peel, among other weird things that tourney players can't fold. So bet enough to charge, but not enough to scare them away. Betting smaller is simply a higher EV play unless you KNOW they have draws a ton, and KNOW they'll call a ton, which is impossible to know.

On this flop with that pot size, I'd say about 800 looks ok. It completely commits you against CO who will have so little left that you can't fold ANY turn, and it pretty much commits you vs utg (who has you covered) too. You'll have ~2k in a 3k pot, pretty much perfect.

About UTG's range, I usually expect marginal hands like big, non-AQ/AK broadway hands, suited connectors, small-med pairs, occasionally a slowplayed big pair.

 

[Jillychemung]

If we bet 800 and the CO shoves and UTG then calls, would we be able to reshove or would the software only allow us to call? This is one piece where I don't know what bet sizes from AI can only be called versus reraised.

 

[Always_Raise_U]

Wow... I didn't see that so much hands could have been weaker... I guess that's what happen in the micros, you are so often sucked at that you start seeing draws on any board and you start thinking that everyone is a chaser...

I think I thought too much about short term here (I could bust out if UTG had a draw and hits) and not enough in long term... (but he could call, without odds, or with a couple of weaker hands)

Also... is estimating a hand range something that is learned from books or just by playing 1000's and 1000's of hands ? Because i played since a year now and well... I still sucks at it unless it is VERY obvious like a nit raising UTG......

 

[ChuckTs]

Well you could start using things like pokerstove to help you. Just play with some hand ranges, see how they compare to other hands/ranges, and start applying it to real situations.

If you have a tracker (PT3 or HEM) it gets easier for you since it lays it out in %s. So if a nit opens utg, you can look at HEM's popup and see exactly what range he's doing that with (assuming you have a big enough sample to have it converge properly). Top %5 is {88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo}. Top %10 is {77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo}. Then you can punch in your hand to see how it does against that range to give you an idea of how to proceed.

As time goes on and you play more, you start to get a feel for what types of %s relate to what types of hands, and you better understand how to go about playing various hands against those ranges. So experience definitely plays a part too.

 

[RiverJunkie77]

i like the overbet shove with the nuts as it makes u look weak like u have AQ and ur just trying to pick up the pot so u might get called down weak like someone with AJ and ur at the same time protecting ur hand on a draw heavy board

 

[ukaliks]

well since u've got top set it's pretty rare that any1 else will have the other king. By shoving ur only gonna get called by OESD and nut flush draws so y not charge them for their draw by bettin 2/3 or 3/4 and if they call u pop it on the turn no matter what card falls. Ur pot commited and u still have 1 card left to make a fullhouse so get it in IMO.....

 

[JustRaiseTheBlinds]

The shove here is oké if you don't want any risk.

You also could have make 1/2 pot and go to a turn...

 

[Implied Odds3]

I bet around 700. I understand trying to get out all the drawing hands but I'd rather make them pay for drawing to them.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I can understand the thinking behind shoving the flop.... playing in super micros and being used to so many bad players calling w/o odds and hitting miracle cards.. BUT.. you really have to get your big hands paid off and work at trying to extract max. value on them... BUT.. at the same time you want to be charging draws the max. amount so that it'd be a mistake for them to be calling you.
In this spot, Say you lead out with 800 and CO calls... UTG is now more apt to chase with a draw and he's getting the right odds to make the call. It will leave enough in your stack though that if just UTG calls, you have enough behind so that your bet on the turn will be forcing him to make a call w/o getting proper odds to do so (but if he's as loose as I'm assuming, he's probably not going to go away on the turn anyways... actually my guess is.. if he's on the flush draw he's probably going to be the type who will reraise you allin).
I'd probably lead out for around 900. You could bet "POT" for a couple of reasons.... if CO is going to call a bet of 800-900 then they'll also be calling a POT bet because they'll be pot-committed if they call 900 anyways. Also, if you were to lead out for say '800' and CO calls, UTG is now getting the right odds to call with a draw.
I think in this spot you just have to focus on how you're going to be able to get the most (or all) of the money into the pot. If Utg is a big enough spewtard, maybe a bet of 1/3 pot could have him coming over the top?
You've got a few options with this hand. I'd probably just go with 900 and see what happens.