$2 NLHE STT Turbo: Hand against a very aggressive player

[jaded848]

$2 NL HE STT Turbo: Hand against a very aggressive player

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 56/36/67

So a few things about this hand-
I raised preflop because I had good position and I had been playing real tight up until that point- I felt I could start to play looser with a hand like JTs which can connect with alot of different flops.
Now, the BB 3bets me. I pretty much half-expected this. He had been playing extremely LAG and his 3bet percentage was 10%. He seemed to be in almost every pot, and I decided to call his 3bet based on the following:
1) I had position on him
2) My call closed the action
3) I had a hand that could connect with alot of different flops
4) He had been playing so loose it was hard to give him any credit for a hand
5) If I did connect on the flop, it's likely I could get more from him simply by letting him play at me.
6) If I totally missed, I could fold my hand and still have a reasonable stack.
7) I was getting about 2-1 for my money.

So I went with the call. The flop was really good for me, as I flopped trips. I think I might have made a mistake here...he bet out and I raised. Looking back, I think I should have smooth called, as the board was safe with no flush draws or straight draws really. Against a better player, the raise may have been better because it would have made it seem like I didn't have the J if I was fast playing it.

I was wondering though, what if there was a flush draw on the flop (say 2 spades)? Would it still be wise to slowplay it?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB (t2680)
UTG (t3100)
Hero (MP) (t3265)
Button (t970)
SB (t3485)
Hero's M: 21.77
Preflop: Hero is MP with J

, 10

UTG calls t100, Hero bets t300, 1 fold, SB raises to t1000, 2 folds, Hero calls t700
Flop: (t2200) J

, A

, J

(2 players)
SB bets t1000, Hero raises to t2000, SB raises to t2485 (All-In), Hero calls t265 (All-In)
Turn: (t6730) 9

(2 players, 2 all-in)
River: (t6730) 5

(2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: t6730

 

[bgomez89]

Fine as played but why did you min raise instead of just going all in for 265 more?

 

[jaded848]

Fine as played but why did you min raise instead of just going all in for 265 more?

Just a dumb move on my part. I guess I figured some players are so bad they don't realize that calling a bet that would leave them with 485 chips is essentially the same as them moving all-in.

 

[WiZZiM]

itd be wise not to stick a third of your stack preflop with J10s... if you half expect that a person to act behind you is going to reraise, this raise becomes even worse.. sure if the blinds are tight, this may be an ok play.. but you list off things to justify your play, and i just cannot see this being a anywhere close to a +ev call.. if you miss the flop, hes betting and your folding,, youd have to hit pretty hard to get it in.. sometimes when you do hit, he still wins, by having you outkicked or whatever.. and sometimes you get it in, and he outdraws you..


like the 265 matters, hes all in.. no matter what... postflop i think its better just to get it in.. its unlikely hes going to fold anyways after putting so much money in...

if theres a flush draw, your not folding on the turn, so you may as well get it in...

your getting 2 to 1.. ok fine, whatever, your implied odds are? yes thats right, very low... i think youve just overvalued your position and hand, with shallow stacks, your hand against his range can never be too strong here.. id fold in this situation 100% of the time preflop..

 

[Jillychemung]

Looking back, I think I should have smooth called, as the board was safe with no flush draws or straight draws really.

Was the villain so bad as to put 2/3 of his stack in and then fold to a raise? I don't think so. IMHO Villain was prepared to stack off here so just shove instead of the min-raise leaving 265 behind.

Heck with this read I may have just 4-bet shoved preflop against this kind of player.

 

[WiZZiM]

Was the villain so bad as to put 2/3 of his stack in and then fold to a raise? I don't think so. IMHO Villain was prepared to stack off here so just shove instead of the min-raise leaving 265 behind.

Heck with this read I may have just 4-bet shoved preflop against this kind of player.

are you serious? you just have to be having a laugh..

 

[cjatud2012]

Pre-flop, fold to 3-bet. As played, jam the flop.

 

[jaded848]

your hand against his range can never be too strong here

Just curious about this- he's played 60% of the hands he's been dealt. What exactly is the range you are putting him on?

Also, not sure if you fully read my post- my implied odds are through the roof. He's c-betting ANY flop, and a player like this is the kind to call a shove with overcards on a whiffed flop.

 

[Jillychemung]

Was the villain so bad as to put 2/3 of his stack in and then fold to a raise? I don't think so. IMHO Villain was prepared to stack off here so just shove instead of the min-raise leaving 265 behind.

Heck with this read I may have just 4-bet shoved preflop against this kind of player.

are you serious? you just have to be having a laugh..

Nope not kidding. With this type of player and the buy-in level what am I really afraid of? He won't have AA/KK/QQ/AK here since' he'd try to slow play them. I'm ahead of 22-99 and 40-60 to just about everything else. Any flop with face cards is going to help me unless it's a flop w/ 3-of-a-kind and he's going to miss a lot of flops. IMHO this villains range is huge here 22-JJ, A2-AQ, K8+, all connectors 54+, all one gappers T8+ . And I truly expect this type of player to 3-bet/fold 1/3 of his stack a good 75% of the time in this spot.

 

[jaded848]

Villain had A4o

 

[cjatud2012]

Also, not sure if you fully read my post- my implied odds are through the roof. He's c-betting ANY flop, and a player like this is the kind to call a shove with overcards on a whiffed flop.

Implied odds are not through the roof. You are calling 700 to win the 1500 in the pot, plus the 2000 or so in his stack. This is about 5:1, which is not the appropriate odds you need. Most players will look for 10:1 against bad players, and closer to 15:1 against good players. This is because bad players will almost always pay off when we hit, but good players will not.

Villain had A4o

A4> JT

 

[WiZZiM]

wtf?

your implied odds are not through the roof! you have 30 bb's your implied odds can never be great.. you cant even get odds to setmine, letalone, call a reasonable sized 3bet. the fact your in position doesnt matter, your skill level over him doesnt matter. this is a long term spew.. a huge one..

the fact that his vpip is 60 doesnt tell the whole story, hes only raising half that.. what do you figure his 3beting range to be?

and jilly.. how do you really know if he will try and slowplay aces, you have to include them in his range here.. your BEHIND 22+ behind and ace,, dominated by most broadway. and like you said, the other crap he may fold. but if he calls you, you can never be in good shape.. id be afraid of him snap calling with a fair chunk of his range.. folds 75% of the time.. maybe.. you cant be sure with a guy like that.. i figure he snaps with like 25% of his hands.. probably wider.. so getting involved here at these blinds levels 30 odd bb's deep is truly horrible... if you had like 3k hands on him, and a specific read told you he is very likely to 3bet/fold then maybe then, you can justify it.. but here you cant really make generalizations that he folds 75% of his range.. his raising range is like 35% if his 3betting range stays the same. then you expect him to fold 75% of the time? LOL


I just had to run this past a friend of mine, to check i was still sane.
quote

"Everything about that hand is horrible... the opening raise, the call, and worst of all the guy's rationale for doing it."pokerderk

 

[jaded848]

Implied odds are not through the roof. You are calling 700 to win the 1500 in the pot, plus the 2000 or so in his stack. This is about 5:1, which is not the appropriate odds you need. Most players will look for 10:1 against bad players, and closer to 15:1 against good players. This is because bad players will almost always pay off when we hit, but good players will not.



A4> JT

So with 5:1 odds, you wouldn't play JT against A4?

I just had to run this past a friend of mine, to check i was still sane.
quote

"Everything about that hand is horrible... the opening raise, the call, and worst of all the guy's rationale for doing it."pokerderk

Didn't have to post this. If you don't agree with how I played the hand then fine, I respect that and I take all criticism into consideration. But dropping names just to make me look like an idiot is unnecessary.

 

[cjatud2012]

So with 5:1 odds, you wouldn't play JT against A4?

Not for what is practically my tournament life. And besides, we when we were calling the 3-bet we didn't know that he had A4. Even though he was very active, our hand does not play well against his 3-bet range. He's not 3-betting out of position with J8, I can tell you that.

 

[jaded848]

Not for what is practically my tournament life. And besides, we when we were calling the 3-bet we didn't know that he had A4. Even though he was very active, our hand does not play well against his 3-bet range. He's not 3-betting out of position with J8, I can tell you that.

If I called preflop instead of raised, and say he raised to 300, could I call that bet or should I fold there too?

 

[cjatud2012]

If I called preflop instead of raised, and say he raised to 300, could I call that bet or should I fold there too?

I suppose you could, by what I said earlier, you'd be getting about 10:1 implied odds. But at high blinds, this is clearly an inferior play.

In a normal situation, if we call the 3-bet, we're going to fold the flop 90-95% of the time, which is why calling the 3-bet to begin with is spew. Even if the flop is J62, if we push, we're getting stacked the majority of the time. I would only proceed with a hand like JT if the flop brought two pair, trips, or a combo draw, which doesn't happen very often. Against this opponent, I'm okay with seeing more flops, because we know we'll get called by worse, but when we have to pay 1/3 of our stack to see a flop, this becomes a -EV play.

Hope this all is helpful. Good discussion going.

 

[WiZZiM]

sorry man, didnt mean to berate you or whatever.. that is from a sng poker pro. just thought you may like his input. i meant in not way to make you look stupid... i posted it more for jilly TBH. as i couldnt believe she would 4bet shove there in that spot... still cant.. hehe

and another thing.. we all look stupid sometimes when it comes to poker.. hell i do worse things than this from time to time.. today i shoved with Q2 offsuit, from the sb, bb had like 7bb. standard shove with any two, as i know hes tight.. he folds.. ok good i thought, then the flop turns up. im like. wtf? my Hud had blocked a guys limp from MP, i never would have shoved otherwise.. but again a stupid thing to do nonetheless.. the important thing is to learn and move on from it though.. here, i still wouldnt call a 300 bet.. the blinds are far to high still for SC type hands.. I might call preflop, but if it gets raised im done with the hand.. theres very little long term value here in playing this pot.. and as a good player.. you can def find a better spot against this guy..

now if you played this guy again.. and the blinds are like 10/20 you decide to limp with it and he bets like 60, sure make the call. as your inpostion with much much better implied odds.. as were 75 bb's deep instead of just over 30..