$2.50 NLHE MTT Turbo: $2,50 NLHE MTT Turbo: Final Table AKs

[matiusaa]

I have doubts of this hand because of ICM, but I decided to call since the short stack also went all in, what do you think?

pokerstars Hand #129512946270: Tournament #1125010585, $2.28+$0.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (1250/2500) - 2015/01/28 20:47:22 ART [2015/01/28 18:47:22 ET]
Table '1125010585 5' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Alvidos (43524 in chips)
Seat 2: Check weighe (19319 in chips)
Seat 3: cycy17 (17228 in chips)
Seat 4: chechilaa (51816 in chips)
Seat 5: mrbeckz (15747 in chips)
Seat 7: Matius_94 (43464 in chips)
Seat 8: Ib_9 (20304 in chips)
Seat 9: aPKRman11 (58598 in chips)
Alvidos: posts the ante 250
Check weighe: posts the ante 250
cycy17: posts the ante 250
chechilaa: posts the ante 250
mrbeckz: posts the ante 250
Matius_94: posts the ante 250
Ib_9: posts the ante 250
aPKRman11: posts the ante 250
mrbeckz: posts small blind 1250
Matius_94: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Matius_94 [Ac Kc]
Ib_9: folds
aPKRman11: folds
Alvidos: raises 40774 to 43274 and is all-in
Check weighe: folds
cycy17: folds
chechilaa: folds
mrbeckz: calls 14247 and is all-in
Matius_94: calls 40714 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (60) returned to Alvidos
*** FLOP *** [4c 6s Js]
*** TURN *** [4c 6s Js] 2♠
*** RIVER *** [4c 6s Js 2s] <font color='red'>J<font face="arial">♦</font></font>
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Matius_94: shows [Ac Kc] (a pair of Jacks)
Alvidos: shows [Ah Qd] (a pair of Jacks - lower kicker)
Matius_94 collected 55434 from side pot
mrbeckz: shows [9c 9h] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
mrbeckz collected 48491 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 103925 Main pot 48491. Side pot 55434. | Rake 0
Board [4c 6s Js 2s Jd]
Seat 1: Alvidos showed [Ah Qd] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: Check weighe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: cycy17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: chechilaa (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: mrbeckz (small blind) showed [9c 9h] and won (48491) with two pair, Jacks and Nines
Seat 7: Matius_94 (big blind) showed [Ac Kc] and won (55434) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: Ib_9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: aPKRman11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[horizon12]

So it looks much better

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.5 Tournament, 1,250/2,500 Blinds 250 Ante (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool

MP1 (t43,524)
MP2 (t19,319)
CO (t17,228)
Button (t51,816)
SB (t15,747)
Hero (BB) (t43,464)
UTG (t20,304)
UTG+1 (t58,598)

Hero's M: 7.56

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, K

2 folds, MP1 raises to t43,274 (All-In), 3 folds, SB calls t14,247 (All-In), Hero calls t40,714 (All-In)

Flop: (t103,925) 4

, 6

, J

(3 players, 3 all-in)

Turn: (t103,925) J

(3 players, 3 all-in)

River: (t103,925) 2

(3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: t103,925

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had 9

, 9

(two pair, Jacks and nines).
Hero had A

, K

(one pair, Jacks).
MP1 had A

, Q

(one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: SB won t48,491, Hero won t55,434

 

[horizon12]

It is easy call, because you have only 7M and to enter the top 3 you must win such coinflips...

This is the best situation that would double stack and then crush your opponents with 2x stack, you will have a very big advantage..

 

[es530]

I think it's fold, but uim call here depedendo of how these players were acting is fair.

 

[Jpetro]

You have to call here. You need to play for the win and not just to cash. In tournaments you almost always have one hand like this you will have to survive to win or final table.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Prolly have to explain to them just what exactly ICM is. sigh

 

[matiusaa]

You have to call here. You need to play for the win and not just to cash. In tournaments you almost always have one hand like this you will have to survive to win or final table.

I had cashed a lons time ago, 27 were paid and I was on the final table, I was playing considering ICM. Final table is the most important stage of a tournament

 

[spiderman637]

I feel that its a good call with AK der considering ur position...any other hand except face card pairs and AQ, I would have played it passively in that situation(ft), but wid AK and low stacks jumping in...u gotta call from ur position...

 

[WiZZiM]

depends on payouts, skill level in relation to remaining players, how fast the blinds rise oh and villains range which hasnt even been estimated yet... (all icm considerations can be ansewered by the above questions.) also not sure why were low stacks here we are nearly the cl with around 17bbs to play with.

 

[WiZZiM]

where have all the good tourney posters gone anyways?

 

[hffjd2000]

depends on payouts, skill level in relation to remaining players, how fast the blinds rise oh and villains range which hasnt even been estimated yet... (all icm considerations can be ansewered by the above questions.) also not sure why were low stacks here we are nearly the cl with around 17bbs to play with.

Totally agree.

@matiusaa: I think we should be more concern on the same stack player than the short stack player.

The question is, are you willing to enter a coinflip with player almost same stack as yours?

 

[4soul]

So i read these ideas about your hand, it's an interesting hand like it a lot because i know the paid places tabel and it's quite good in this kind of games on stars.
So the player that push with AQ have a range almost premium. Aparently, he have a hand that he can't play it with a raise minimum or more than 3x....so, for him it's difficult to open this hand, so the push with ~20bb is fine, and corectly. You may see this a weak move....but sometimes he can have 99+( but in most of the cases , practicaly NEVER , aces ) .
The idea is simple, is a flip. If you admit that he have QQ for example and you call with AK, assumes your risks, but is a good play and profitable move when you are a regulat at this stakes. Winning this hand is like you are prepaired for the HU . After i see the results, it's also profitable that the short caller could be better than AK ( AA , KK even), you still play for your flip, because that short don't affect you so much, to put you in trouble and discuss to prepairing the fold button.
And after this analisys, i have a question for you : you should call here if the short one had much more than 28k$ chips?

 

[matiusaa]

So i read these ideas about your hand, it's an interesting hand like it a lot because i know the paid places tabel and it's quite good in this kind of games on stars.
So the player that push with AQ have a range almost premium. Aparently, he have a hand that he can't play it with a raise minimum or more than 3x....so, for him it's difficult to open this hand, so the push with ~20bb is fine, and corectly. You may see this a weak move....but sometimes he can have 99+( but in most of the cases , practicaly NEVER , aces ) .
The idea is simple, is a flip. If you admit that he have QQ for example and you call with AK, assumes your risks, but is a good play and profitable move when you are a regulat at this stakes. Winning this hand is like you are prepaired for the HU . After i see the results, it's also profitable that the short caller could be better than AK ( AA , KK even), you still play for your flip, because that short don't affect you so much, to put you in trouble and discuss to prepairing the fold button.
And after this analisys, i have a question for you : you should call here if the short one had much more than 28k$ chips?

I'm not scared about the short stack, he's got less than 6bb. The player I'm scared in some way is the bigger stack that open push. I know its less likely for him to have AA or KK because he's only got 3 combos of each, and in fact, if he would have a premium hand, I wouldn't expect him to open push 20bb, he would open raise to 2bb. What I thought is that he had a hand with whick he didn't want to see the flop, like TT, JJ, AQ or AK. And when the Short calls, he is adding odds for me to call because with AKs I'm clearly crushing his range.

 

[daredeviljo]

Well, I agree with the call. I would have also called. This is because AK suited is a great hand, and there was alright value. Some players may be more aggressive in the final stages of the tourney, due to all the dead chips, and the fact that everyone is a short stack (has less than 25 BBs). So, the opener, which was the richer guy, had wider ranges. So, he was the guy you really want to beat, as you still profit if you lose to the other guy, and beat this guy (which is what occured). So, the call makes sense. The short stack calling is probably not the best thing that can happen, as you can only profit 14k from him, but potentially lose 28k (your 14k, and MP1s 14k). But, you do get better value if both opponents have pockets thats not A or K. You had a decent chance of getting 100k, which would've boosted your stack a ton, and even if you only beat the MP1 (who can have wider ranges), you profit over 30% of your stack. So in this position it's a call, as there's many chances to gain chips with the cards you have, and as long as you beat MP1 you profit.

 

[WiZZiM]

yes shortstack is basically just dead money but he can also take a lot of our outs away if werr vs a pocket pair type range from villian. the only range we really care abouy is the guy open jamming.. usually ppl do this bc they dont want action. so I usually rule out the absolutr top end range and cap it to middle pocket pairs decent aces and depending how loose stuff like kq as well..

so vs that range we do ok maybe a little better than a flip whixh is good. however this is a final table and we can be eliminated here in this hand.

so while the call is likely profitable it does not mean we should just take it without considering things first.. the problem with just going with the rationale of "well I call bc this will show a profit long term" is that depending how many final tables you actually play this spot may never actuallu even out meaning it never reaches the long term. so thinking about range vs range early and mid game is fine. but here we can easily fild this hand and still be in joint second place.

basically this is a common sense spot which you need to ask yourself in gam3 how much is this game worth to you. if you make these ft all the time and you dont really care about losing here and you know the upside of winning actually helps you a lot or you can use a big stack well. then common sense points to a call if this is your first final table and you dont have many buyins then making it up a few more spots before taking that inevitable risk is worth way more to you than risking it all here and now so common sense will point to a fold there.. so rly this call is likely profitable op.. now use you common sense to work out if calling or folding is better for you as final tables dont happen all that often..

 

[AtiFCOD]

Since there is no info about the players and there is no info about the money (1st, 2nd...) it's hard to say. AK is pretty vulnerable against 2 players, plus preflopallin from early position means usually a big hand. Tho AK is still a big hand especually under 20BB. It's 50-50 (push-fold) IMO.

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

Check ICMIZER or some similar program which can calculate different situations 4 you.

 

[matiusaa]

Thank you guys for your help

 

[PokerFunKid]

Hard one, depends on the table dynamics, player image of people involved and how strong the table is. I'm not sure and i think it is a situation you make based on how the tournament went, how the table is etc. But i think i will end up having to call, and go for the top 3. Is it OK if i used this hand to analyze by a pro?

 

[Ambur]

...Is it OK if i used this hand to analyze by a pro?

Its actually pretty easy call by given information imo

Since SB is in desperate mode blind's are increasing quickly plus ante is involved and the playable card does not coming so often (its turbo) which means SB range tend to be a little bit wider then usually (some sort of suited connector type hands, pairs or some sort value hands). Since we are holding KAs, i assume there is not much K or A combos for MP1 (worst case we are coinflipping against his range imo and if he had AA or KK meh i will play another one )! Which gives us tremendous opportunity to collect some highly valuable dead money to play our fancy play and our cards are suited which gives us some extra value over long run.

Furthermore if SB stack would twice as big, under those circumstances his most likely cold calling range tend to be really tight which means we should let the hand go! imo Since we have not much information about the players it can be wrong conclusion. But even the given information i would fold it when SB have twice big stack as he has right now!

Note that it is a turbo version and blind goes up and good cards does not arrive that often! If it would be 15 minutes levels the game plan might change a bit.

 

[matiusaa]

Hard one, depends on the table dynamics, player image of people involved and how strong the table is. I'm not sure and i think it is a situation you make based on how the tournament went, how the table is etc. But i think i will end up having to call, and go for the top 3. Is it OK if i used this hand to analyze by a pro?

I would be glad to have an opinion of a Pro about this hand

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

This is actually a really interesting spot and a pretty close decision.

The good thing to remember about close decisions like these is that neither decision (fold or call) is a big mistake either way.

I think calling here is +cEV but it's most likely -$EV but only by a little bit. So ICM matters a great deal here and without knowing the prize pool an exact calculation cannot be done.

But I'd lean towards a fold here. AKs is a powerful hand; but IMO a lot of the power comes from putting the pressure on the other players...having some fold equity on your side and having some good cards to back you up when you're called. Calling off your tourney life and going from penthouse to outhouse in 1 hand on AK is probably a pass for me.

As a bonus, you'll get to see what the first guy shoved with and survive to use that info later. My guess would be the first shover had TT or JJ.

If I feel outclassed at the table I'll get it in in this spot. But since it's a $2.50 MTT I'm not likely to feel to outclassed so I'd rather outplay people later with by maintaining my decent stack. For me it's a tank-fold. Then kick myself when I woulda won the pot!

 

[thatgreekdude]

I think this depends entirely on the villain, seems like a pretty close one to me.

 

[lilu80]

ICM factor is no good here, Ofc AKs is very good preflop but becouse ICM is no good sometimes I consider here fold.