$2.25 NLHE STT Turbo: AA Post Flop

R

Riemannian man

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full tilt poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 6 players - View hand 1238981
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP: t1560 52 BBs
CO: t1650 55 BBs
BTN: t1425 47.50 BBs
Hero (SB): t1470 49 BBs
BB: t1545 51.50 BBs
UTG: t1350 45 BBs

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is SB with A
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A
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3 folds, BTN calls t30, Hero raises to t90, 1 fold, BTN calls t60

Flop: (t210) 3
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Q
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5
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(2 players)
Hero bets t170, BTN raises to t1335 all in, Hero ???


Only a couple hands in. Am I beat here enough to make this a fold. The shove just seems so weak into that pot/board especially with position on me.
 
Pascal-lf

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Why does it look weak? What does it matter that he has position on you?
 
cjatud2012

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Pretty sure I call, flushes here are so rare to begin with and they're usually not played this way.
 
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Riemannian man

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If he's made a flush, doesn't it make more sense to flat here. Then if I bet the turn, it's probably the best time to push (odds wise to get me to call) and if I check the turn, I was probably folding to the push anyways (turn dependent, but eh).

That was my reasoning for the weak/position statement, is that not correct thinking?
 
cjatud2012

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Um, you can't flat because he's all-in?
 
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Riemannian man

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Also, what about him doing this with two pair or trips.

Edit: I was talking him flatting my bet.
 
cjatud2012

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Also, what about him doing this with two pair or trips.

His two pair combos are Q5, Q3, and 53, and none of those make a ton of sense after you raised pre. Sets are possible of course, but I think you have to at least discount QQ as he didn't 3-bet you pre.

Oh, just saw your edit, yeah I agree, a more normal line for a flush is to flat the flop.
 
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Riemannian man

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Yah, at the time the only thing I could justify him doing this with that actually beat me was 33/55. And that most of the time its draw/top pair.
 
Pascal-lf

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What about if he has 78ss, 89ss - wouldn't he shove flop to stop you seeing a cheap turn card which might be a high spade? ;)

Just trying to get you thinking about these things! Regardless, I snap - two pairs unlikely as cjatud said and you've got OK equity against pair+draw
 
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Riemannian man

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I didn't really think about a weak flush playing it like that, but it's definitely believable. I guess my call was the right move then.
 
cardriverx

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It seems like a weak flush, trying to weed out high spades. I would actually probably fold here.
 
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I would probably call this one...especially if this was a rebuy tournament :)i think he had a top pair and probably he was expecting a flush on turn...but this was an early stage of the tournament so my decision would be call...
 
cjatud2012

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I would probably call this one...especially if this was a rebuy tournament :)i think he had a top pair and probably he was expecting a flush on turn...but this was an early stage of the tournament so my decision would be call...

It's not a rebuy, it's a STT. Read the title.
 
Pascal-lf

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I would probably call this one...especially if this was a rebuy tournament :)i think he had a top pair and probably he was expecting a flush on turn...but this was an early stage of the tournament so my decision would be call...

It seems like a weak flush, trying to weed out high spades. I would actually probably fold here.

Guys, put villain on ranges not specific hands. You can't say he has a flush or top pair 100% of the time and never shoves with anything else.
 
OzExorcist

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Snapcall because villain does this with all sorts of stuff that we beat and very little that beats us. Almost never a made flush.
 
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Guys, put villain on ranges not specific hands. You can't say he has a flush or top pair 100% of the time and never shoves with anything else.

Yeah but i was trying to say that it would be his best hand,top pair or flash draw;)
 
takethepain

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Could be doing this with a weak flush draw. Could be doing this with trips. Most likely doing this with a pair and a spade and wanting to take this down here and now.

Call and pray no more spades come!
 
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given he raised, I would assume he has a paint card rather than suited connectors being played here. If he has QQ or KK, it would be more likely he would reraise you to get more value. Thus, I think he probably has something like KQ, AQ, QJ. He hit top pair with high kicker so he probably thinks he's good but wants to protect his hand so he shoves all in. I would say call.
 
jbbb

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wow mixed views ITT.
Too early to risk tournament life?
Or risk it and take the (marginal) double up against his suspected range.
 
DetroitJimmy

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Honestly I think you could call or fold. Most likely I call here but I don't think is is a great call. It is if one of my aces is a spade. If ya call you are ahead of his range, but I'm almost for sure you aren't crushing it. The odds are he has one spade at least so any spade knocks you out.

The reason I think it's closer than it looks is I try not to go out in the first few rounds. There is no reason to at these levels cause hardly anyone plays a middle/end game for shet! Actually the more I think about it folding sounds better and better.
 
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I would likely fold here. It's early in the tournament, a dangerous board for you, and there are way better spots to call an all in.
 
cjatud2012

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So given our pot odds we need about 40.4% equity to be +cEV. At this point in the SNG (looks like we're dealing with 6-max here) our ICM tax is about 1.16 (to figure this out, you look at how much equity you gain vs how much you are losing), so we're looking at approximately 47% equity needed. So what's his range? A bunch of made flushes are possible, but probably just as many flush draws, plus sets, and some overpairs if he's weird/bad. So if you go to pokerstove:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.707% 49.08% 00.62% 64627 822.50 { AcAs, AdAs, AhAs, KK-QQ, JcJh, JcJs, JdJs, JhJs, TcTh, TcTs, TdTs, ThTs, 9c9s, 9d9s, 9h9s, 55, 33, AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, KsQs, KsJs, KsTs, Ks9s, QsJs, QsTs, JsTs, Ts9s, 9s8s, 8s7s, AcKs, AdKs, AhKs, AsKc, AsKd, AsKh, AcQs, AdQs, AhQs, AsQc, AsQd, AsQh, AcJs, AdJs, AhJs, AsJc, AsJd, AsJh, AcTs, AdTs, AhTs, AsTc, AsTd, AsTh, Ac9s, Ad9s, Ah9s, As9c, As9d, As9h, Ac8s, Ad8s, Ah8s, As8c, As8d, As8h, Ac7s, Ad7s, Ah7s, As7c, As7d, As7h, Ac6s, Ad6s, Ah6s, As6c, As6d, As6h, Ac5s, Ad5s, Ah5s, As5c, As5d, As5h, Ac4s, Ad4s, Ah4s, As4c, As4d, As4h, Ac3s, Ad3s, Ah3s, As3c, As3d, As3h, Ac2s, Ad2s, Ah2s, As2c, As2d, As2h, KcQs, KdQs, KhQs, KsQc, KsQd, KsQh, KcJs, KdJs, KhJs, KsJc, KsJd, KsJh, KcTs, KdTs, KhTs, KsTc, KsTd, KsTh, QcJs, QdJs, QhJs, QsJc, QsJd, QsJh, QcTs, QdTs, QhTs, QsTc, QsTd, QsTh, JcTs, JdTs, JhTs, JsTc, JsTd, JsTh, Tc9s, Td9s, Th9s, Ts9c, Ts9d, Ts9h, 9c8s, 9d8s, 9h8s, 9s8c, 9s8d, 9s8h, 8c7s, 8d7s, 8h7s, 8s7c, 8s7d, 8s7h }
Hand 1: 50.293% 49.67% 00.62% 65398 822.50 { AdAh }

And I didn't manipulate that at all to confirm my answer, that's the first range I put in and the answer I got. So yes we're flipping essentially, but given what's in the pot it's going to be worth our while.

Another way to look at it (more maths, yay!) - if we win here, our equity is ~30-31%. If we lose, we're basically out, so we'll say 0% for that. Our equity when we fold is ~13.5%. So if our percent to win the hand times our equity when we win is greater than our equity when we fold, then it's +EV.

.503*(30%) = 15.09%

So that's obviously greater than what we have when we fold, meaning we should make this call, and we only need 45% equity for this to be break-even $EV (and this is using the more conservative 30% for our tournament equity).
 
DetroitJimmy

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^^^I say forget all that. It is a two dollar tourney. You don't need this equity as you will have plenty of chances at less risky equity between now and shove/fold time. Then when it comes down to that time, you will outplay these micro stakes players.

My point is folding is not wrong here. Maybe in a $12+ tourney, but not in a $2 one. There is just no point in taking a such a risk this early IMO.
 
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