$2.20 NLHE MTT: Flopped top and bottom pair: How do you play the turn?

[nabmom]

I thought my flop bet was correct given the flop. I wanted to protect my hand from flush draws. No decent read on opponent (had seen loose play from him but don't know how loose he really was).

Was this the correct aggression given that I was OOP?
Given the call on my flop bet, and me being OOP, should I have shut down and checked on the turn?
Should I fire the next shot and see how villain reacts?
What factors should I be taking into consideration?

NL Hold'em Tournament - t1000/t2000 Blinds + t200 - 6 players - View hand 1001570
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: t21346 M = 5.08
SB: t4480 M = 1.07
Hero (BB): t47980 M = 11.42
UTG: t3702 M = 0.88
MP: t57956 M = 13.80
CO: t33193 M = 7.90

Pre Flop: (t4200) Hero is BB with 6

K

1 fold, MP calls t2000, CO calls t2000, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: (t8200) Q

K

6

(3 players)
Hero bets t8200, MP folds, CO calls t8200

Turn: (t8200) 2

(2 players)
Hero ???

 

[cjatud2012]

what stage of the MTT is this?

 

[medeiros13]

Was this the correct aggression given that I was OOP? I like the aggressive bet to try and end the hand there.
Given the call on my flop bet, and me being OOP, should I have shut down and checked on the turn? I don't think so. If you give initiative away by not betting, you give the villan a chance to fire back at you. I've checked these situations way too many times only to see an AI sent back at me.
Should I fire the next shot and see how villain reacts? Absolutely.
What factors should I be taking into consideration? We're a top 2 stack playing against the 3rd place stack; how deep do we really want to get with this hand. What will we do if he reraises us after we bet the turn? How are we going to handle a scare card on the river (both club and potential straight cards)

My opinion is to fire about a 1/3 pot bet and go from there. I think he may have J 10 and is on a straight draw...possibly with a club as one of those cards.

 

[cjatud2012]

My opinion is to fire about a 1/3 pot bet and go from there. I think he may have J 10 and is on a straight draw...possibly with a club as one of those cards.

put him on a range plz, don't just name a hand that we beat (why wouldn't we only fire a 1/3 bet if he had JT anyway?...).

 

[nabmom]

what stage of the MTT is this?

When indicating stage of tourney, what is helpful to know? Something as general as early/mid/late? Or is it better to know how many players left in relation to the money?

 

[cjatud2012]

When indicating stage of tourney, what is helpful to know? Something as general as early/mid/late? Or is it better to know how many players left in relation to the money?

Yeah are we at final table? The final few tables? It is a 6-max tourney and is that why we are playing short-handed? Are we ITM? What is the payout structure like?

 

[nabmom]

put him on a range plz, don't just name a hand that we beat (why wouldn't we only fire a 1/3 bet if he had JT anyway?...).

Serious question, although I'm sure there's no easy answer: In large MTTs where you don't know many of the players, how do you put someone on a range? Would you add a certain margin of error depending on buy-in (assuming lower stakes = higher fishes? More nits?)

 

[nabmom]

Yeah are we at final table? The final few tables? It is a 6-max tourney and is that why we are playing short-handed? Are we ITM? What is the payout structure like?

Thanks CJ. I'm just learning how to post hands here effectively and am cutting/pasting hands as I play them into a text file with my own notations. I'll make sure I add more info about the stage if it's a tourney. (Posting in a meaningful way is a learning curve that I think you get only with practice!).

 

[medeiros13]

put him on a range plz, don't just name a hand that we beat (why wouldn't we only fire a 1/3 bet if he had JT anyway?...).

That board is too scary to be firing off to aggressively. Like I said above, the villan is 3rd in chips and can put a heck of a dent in our stack. My 1/3 pot bet gives our two pair some value and keeps the pot size down. The villan may reraise us or shove thinking that we may have a bigger club which would ruin their potential flush draw. That action would certainly define where we are in the hand and allow us to escape any further damage.

The limp tells me that the likelihood of KQ or AK/AQ is small. I'm thinking suited connector or small pp.

 

[medeiros13]

When indicating stage of tourney, what is helpful to know? Something as general as early/mid/late? Or is it better to know how many players left in relation to the money?

Everything that you mentioned is a factor that needs to be considered. I'm assuming that with 6 people left in a MTT, that you all are ITM. Is there a big payout increase between 6th and 3rd??

 

[cjatud2012]

That board is too scary to be firing off to aggressively. Like I said above, the villan is 3rd in chips and can put a heck of a dent in our stack. My 1/3 pot bet gives our two pair some value and keeps the pot size down. The villan may reraise us or shove thinking that we may have a bigger club which would ruin their potential flush draw. That action would certainly define where we are in the hand and allow us to escape any further damage.

The limp tells me that the likelihood of KQ or AK/AQ is small. I'm thinking suited connector or small pp.

readless you can't discount those types of hands from his range. What pocket pair is gonna peel this flop? I suppose if they had a club in their hand they could peel, but 7h7d isn't going to call a pot-sized bet. I can agree on some suited connectors or Ax type hands, but against those if we fire 1/3 of the pot we're giving them the correct odds to draw to a better hand, and that's the majority of his range imo-- made flushes, flush draws including pocket pairs that now have flush draws, some combo flush+broadway straight draws, worse kings, maybe sets.

So against that range I think it's just best that we shove here. Villain's stack is about the same size as the pot, so by shoving we're forcing him to make a decision for his whole tournament. If he has a draw, then he's paying the maximum. If we bet less than that, are we really going to fold if he raises all-in? We're getting like 4:1 or something crazy if he raises us all-in, so why wouldn't we just shove?

 

[medeiros13]

readless you can't discount those types of hands from his range. What pocket pair is gonna peel this flop? I suppose if they had a club in their hand they could peel, but 7h7d isn't going to call a pot-sized bet. I can agree on some suited connectors or Ax type hands, but against those if we fire 1/3 of the pot we're giving them the correct odds to draw to a better hand, and that's the majority of his range imo-- made flushes, flush draws including pocket pairs that now have flush draws, some combo flush+broadway straight draws, worse kings, maybe sets.

So against that range I think it's just best that we shove here. Villain's stack is about the same size as the pot, so by shoving we're forcing him to make a decision for his whole tournament. If he has a draw, then he's paying the maximum. If we bet less than that, are we really going to fold if he raises all-in? We're getting like 4:1 or something crazy if he raises us all-in, so why wouldn't we just shove?

Good points sir. You know, even though we'd be getting 4:1 on a call, I still think I'd lay it down if I bet 1/3 of the pot and got reraised. I've been playing MTT's a lot lately and I'm really learning patience and not being afraid to fold in order to save chips for a better spot. A reraise would tell me that I'm probably looking for my 4 outer if I call and I don't like those odds lol. There is no denying that I'm defying pot odds logic with what I'm saying.

I respect your shove thought but the cold call on the turn for a pot sized bet horrifies me. Is the villan just letting us hang ourselves by calling whatever we throw out there for a bet? If that's the case, then the all in will be a snap call and we're crippled.

I'll be curious to see how Deb played this and the result

 

[nabmom]

What's the best way to post results? Should I hide the text? Just post outright? What is preferred?

Thanks.

 

[cjatud2012]

I would wait another day or two if you wanna post results at all, tbh they don't really matter one way or the other when it comes to determining the correct move in this spot.

 

[Clambake420]

What's the best way to post results? Should I hide the text? Just post outright? What is preferred?

Thanks.

after your original post and some discussion following you can post the results outright if you'd like. You just cant put it in the original post as it affects peoples thoughts when discussing the hand.

EDIT: NVM listen to CJ

 

[nabmom]

I would wait another day or two if you wanna post results at all, tbh they don't really matter one way or the other when it comes to determining the correct move in this spot.

I realize that the determination should come with the same information that the player has when making the move (i.e., no idea what cards will come next). But I also get that there is great curiosity with knowing, after all that analysis, what happened.

I don't mind satisfying that curiosity as long as it doesn't get in the way of the purpose of the forum.

 

[cjatud2012]

fair enough, curiousity is always fun

but yeah, wait until tomorrow, I think there's more discussion to be had here.