2.20 MTT, Pair+Flush-Draw=?

[naruto_miu]

First've all to all who tell me to use Converter tool thingy, I don't know how. To Chuck T's you've given me enough sites to help me convert these Hand Histories but I swear I can't figure it out .

Now I would like to know what should our line be on the flop, and if we face more aggression what should we do (Especially if we don't connect on the turn).

Thx all for the input


pokerstars Game #24375374981: Tournament #137057204, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/01/28 18:31:04 ET
Table '137057204 8' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: kleenex-fas (620 in chips)
Seat 2: titus 101010 (470 in chips)
Seat 3: toto007 (2130 in chips)
Seat 4: xiil08 (1440 in chips)
Seat 5: rattle11x (1780 in chips)
Seat 6: biscuit07 (1950 in chips)
Seat 7: dogodebordeo (2590 in chips)
Seat 8: anne74 (1470 in chips)
Seat 9: abdi122 (1620 in chips)
abdi122: posts small blind 15
kleenex-fas: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to abdi122 [Qh 3h]
titus 101010: folds
toto007: calls 30
xiil08: folds
rattle11x: folds
biscuit07: calls 30
dogodebordeo: calls 30
anne74: folds
abdi122: calls 15
kleenex-fas: checks
*** FLOP *** [6h 4h 3s]
abdi122: bets 90
kleenex-fas: folds
toto007: raises 180 to 270

 

[slycbnew]

I assume the raise means an overpair, a set, two pair, a 5 (straight draw or made straight), or a flush draw. I would think he'd just call with a flush draw, so the raise means he's afraid of the flush draw and has one of the other holdings.

I'm not keen on building a large pot here, but given the range I think he has, I don't think you're much less than a coin flip, so I'd want to call and see what the turn brings. A heart, two pair, or trips would make me want to lead out - if he raises your bet three times again, I'd be inclined to fold assuming he has a straight, bigger flush, or a set - anything else would make me want to check and see how strongly he bets into the pot - probably folding to anything more than a half pot bet.

 

[The Shrog]

I might just peel the turn here. Any reads on villain?

 

[naruto_miu]

I might just peel the turn here. Any reads on villain?

No reads on villain here, since the tourney just began . The only thing I know from him is only 4 hands, but not really much to speak about except he's aggressive

 

[naruto_miu]

I assume the raise means an overpair, a set, two pair, a 5 (straight draw or made straight), or a flush draw. I would think he'd just call with a flush draw, so the raise means he's afraid of the flush draw and has one of the other holdings.

I'm not keen on building a large pot here, but given the range I think he has, I don't think you're much less than a coin flip, so I'd want to call and see what the turn brings. A heart, two pair, or trips would make me want to lead out - if he raises your bet three times again, I'd be inclined to fold assuming he has a straight, bigger flush, or a set - anything else would make me want to check and see how strongly he bets into the pot - probably folding to anything more than a half pot bet.

Ya but lets assume W/E the turn brings for us, helps us out other then a flush card, even if by betting here, which would have to be atleast 400, then were really hurting our stack even though it's still early on in the Mtt. If we check we know he'll bet out again, since he's got something wanting to protect! Then what would our line be say in the 2nd case?

 

[orioles32]

There were 5 people that saw the flop. You have commented on the actions of 3 of them. Without knowing what the other 2 are going to do, who will both act before you, it's impossible for us to know if you're getting equity here. You have to assume that you are drawing to a flush to win the pot (or possible one of the 2 remaining 3s).

 

[naruto_miu]

here's the turn card and the other ppl in the hands action

PokerStars Game #24375374981: Tournament #137057204, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/01/28 18:31:04 ET
Table '137057204 8' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: kleenex-fas (620 in chips)
Seat 2: titus 101010 (470 in chips)
Seat 3: toto007 (2130 in chips)
Seat 4: xiil08 (1440 in chips)
Seat 5: rattle11x (1780 in chips)
Seat 6: biscuit07 (1950 in chips)
Seat 7: dogodebordeo (2590 in chips)
Seat 8: anne74 (1470 in chips)
Seat 9: abdi122 (1620 in chips)
abdi122: posts small blind 15
kleenex-fas: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to abdi122 [Qh 3h]
titus 101010: folds
toto007: calls 30
xiil08: folds
rattle11x: folds
biscuit07: calls 30
dogodebordeo: calls 30
anne74: folds
abdi122: calls 15
kleenex-fas: checks
*** FLOP *** [6h 4h 3s]
abdi122: bets 90
kleenex-fas: folds
toto007: raises 180 to 270
biscuit07: folds
biscuit07 is sitting out
dogodebordeo: folds
abdi122: calls 180
*** TURN *** [6h 4h 3s] [3d]
abdi122: bets 200
toto007: raises 1630 to 1830 and is all-in

Look at my bet, was that just asking for trouble? Should we call this? What should I have done differenly/or what would you do in this case?

 

[Jillychemung]

I know you only asked for turn advice but I can't stop myself, fold preflop, Q3 even suited just isn't worth the trouble you can get into.

Flop, why bet your possibly 3rd best draw here? You have to put at least one of the other 4 on an overpair here and I'd be hard pressed to not put one opponent on a higher FD. Try to get to showdown cheaply but that will probably be impossible.

Turn - If you really think you are ahead then kudos on the donk bet to induce the shove and you have to call.

 

[Yeti]

Right then, let's break this down.

Pre-Flop/Flop hand:

Whilst you are asking for post-flop play I want to point to your preflop play first. The blinds are low - this means that you do not need to risk on very very marginal hands which can get you into trouble. Further more you're in the SB. Whilst it may be half a bet to call, you're negating the fact that you then have to act first in every single hand. Whilst this is fine if you actually hit an amazing flop hand, when you had a hand like you did it becomes a lot more difficult to play without seeing how your opponent is reacting. To drop a quick conclusion - preflop whilst the blinds are low and you're in the SB - just let that Q3s go. As another point, only ever limp early game with 22-TT, AXs, and possibly suited connectors.

On the flop you've hit the smallest pair. I would be inclined to discredit this with so many people in the pot. What you truly have is a flush draw, and a flush draw only. You bet out, which is an understandable semi-bluff (though perhaps should have been slightly larger). At this point you're raised. To put Villian on a hand without knowing anything about him, I'm thinking he has a set. Possibly A5h, A6h, AJh etc. Whatever it is it's a hand which he felt was worth limping with from early position, so judging Villian as a reasonable capable player those are his hand ranges. AA and KK could also be thrown in, but I'll exclude them. I'm going to guess at anyrate that he has hit a set. 6s or 4s. As your flush draw can still beat a set, I'm calling.

Turn Hand:

Hurrah! You have trips. On the other hand, it's likely that Villian has now hit a Fullboat. The only card that can save you is the last three, which is quite unlikely. I don't honestly believe that he's playing a higher flush draw than you at this point due to the level of aggression in his play.

Because of this, after the turn I'm folding. There's no point in going all in so early on a 1 outer. If he's actually got the worst of it - oh well, you haven't invested much and there will be plenty of spots later on which you can take to double up.

 

[naruto_miu]

Ok, before I show the results, I want to clear somethings up.

1st) As someone already stated SB, those many limpers in the pot (even though pot was still small), I got a discounted price, I don't know, maybe it's one of my weaknesses, I like to call from SB with many hands in hopes of hittng something decent.

2nd) I basically bet out for a simple reason A) To take down the pot right there and then. B) To find out how strong our oppents are in the hand. C) To also see if anyone else was also of a FLD.

Now you may be like well how does our betting find this out if the oppent calls us, Correct? Well it's actually quite simple, PPl tend to protect there made hands, correct? Atleast in these levels (I maybe mistaken but that's what I've seen so far), so when everyone folds and we get repopped that's when I started actually thinking what could my oppent have here. Yes a set is very possible. Yet that's the thing if he really wanted to protect his set would'nt the person try to atleast 4 bet us, that way when we miss on the turn it would've been alot easier to Ship-It-In? Which left another possible hand 2 pair and straight, I can see this bet with a 2 pair&straight, yet I could'nt really see the same out-come with a set, I maybe mistaken but that's the way I think of it (I'm an odd ball like that ).

Now comes the Turn Card. Well first've all if he had a boat would he really bet so much? His bet screamed plz don't call me, don't river me , don't hit your flush , I have a real hand! Did it not? Would you or anyone else for that matter really push with a boat here? I think not, which now leaves 2 hands he would make this bet with A) 2 Pair trying to also rep a trips B) Straight. Yes I could've folded, but I just kept thinking of all the redraws we had if we were up against a straight, 20outs, I came to conclusion because 9hearts+23's+3Qs=20 outs. So in all fairness were not really drawing dead were just drawing thin .

So to answer all I made the call, yet this was my thinking during this hand. Was it a loose call? I guess you can say that, but I mean to win these mtts, you need to take chances, some pay off, some don't, that's poker folks

PokerStars Game #24375374981: Tournament #137057204, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/01/28 18:31:04 ET
Table '137057204 8' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: kleenex-fas (620 in chips)
Seat 2: titus 101010 (470 in chips)
Seat 3: toto007 (2130 in chips)
Seat 4: xiil08 (1440 in chips)
Seat 5: rattle11x (1780 in chips)
Seat 6: biscuit07 (1950 in chips)
Seat 7: dogodebordeo (2590 in chips)
Seat 8: anne74 (1470 in chips)
Seat 9: abdi122 (1620 in chips)
abdi122: posts small blind 15
kleenex-fas: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to abdi122 [Qh 3h]
titus 101010: folds
toto007: calls 30
xiil08: folds
rattle11x: folds
biscuit07: calls 30
dogodebordeo: calls 30
anne74: folds
abdi122: calls 15
kleenex-fas: checks
*** FLOP *** [6h 4h 3s]
abdi122: bets 90
kleenex-fas: folds
toto007: raises 180 to 270
biscuit07: folds
biscuit07 is sitting out
dogodebordeo: folds
abdi122: calls 180
*** TURN *** [6h 4h 3s] [3d]
abdi122: bets 200
toto007: raises 1630 to 1830 and is all-in
abdi122: calls 1120 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (510) returned to toto007
*** RIVER *** [6h 4h 3s 3d] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
abdi122: shows [Qh 3h] (four of a kind, Threes)
toto007: shows [7s 5d] (a straight, Three to Seven)
abdi122 collected 3330 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3330 | Rake 0
Board [6h 4h 3s 3d 3c]
Seat 1: kleenex-fas (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: titus 101010 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: toto007 showed [7s 5d] and lost with a straight, Three to Seven
Seat 4: xiil08 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: rattle11x folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: biscuit07 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: dogodebordeo folded on the Flop
Seat 8: anne74 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: abdi122 (small blind) showed [Qh 3h] and won (3330) with four of a kind, Threes

 

[Jillychemung]

1st) As someone already stated SB, those many limpers in the pot (even though pot was still small), I got a discounted price, I don't know, maybe it's one of my weaknesses, I like to call from SB with many hands in hopes of hittng something decent.

Playing from the SB is not about the price you pay, it's about the implied odds and the reverse implied odds based on what kind of winning hands you are likely to get with your 2 cards versus the hand ranges the others already in (or likely already in) will have. Q3s has very little implied odds and a very large reverse implied odds.

IMHO this analysis smacks a little of result pollution to justify a poor play.

 

[Jillychemung]

My comments in red.

2nd) I basically bet out for a simple reason A) To take down the pot right there and then. B) To find out how strong our oppents are in the hand. C) To also see if anyone else was also of a FLD.

*** FLOP *** [6h 4h 3s]
abdi122: bets 90
kleenex-fas: folds
toto007: raises 180 to 270
Now you may be like well how does our betting find this out if the oppent calls us, Correct? Well it's actually quite simple, PPl tend to protect there made hands, correct? Atleast in these levels (I maybe mistaken but that's what I've seen so far), so when everyone folds and we get repopped that's when I started actually thinking what could my oppent have here.

So why didn't you believe the villain when he raised your flop bet?

Yes a set is very possible. Yet that's the thing if he really wanted to protect his set would'nt the person try to atleast 4 bet us, that way when we miss on the turn it would've been alot easier to Ship-It-In?
toto007: raises 180 to 270
biscuit07: folds
biscuit07 is sitting out
dogodebordeo: folds
abdi122: calls 180

How's villain supposed to 4-bet you when you call his raise?

Which left another possible hand 2 pair and straight, I can see this bet with a 2 pair&straight, yet I could'nt really see the same out-come with a set, I maybe mistaken but that's the way I think of it (I'm an odd ball like that ).

Now comes the Turn Card. Well first've all if he had a boat would he really bet so much? His bet screamed plz don't call me, don't river me , don't hit your flush , I have a real hand! Did it not? Would you or anyone else for that matter really push with a boat here?

*** TURN *** [6h 4h 3s] 3♦
abdi122: bets 200
You have shown 2, IMHO, donk bets into villains flopped ST8. Villain is putting you on 2P, trips or a FD and with your willingness to bet this is a perfect place for a value shove.

 

[slycbnew]

Playing from the SB is not about the price you pay, it's about the implied odds and the reverse implied odds based on what kind of winning hands you are likely to get with your 2 cards versus the hand ranges the others already in (or likely already in) will have. Q3s has very little implied odds and a very large reverse implied odds.

Jilly, this comment is very helpful - I found this thread interesting because I get into sticky situations early in tourneys and end up building/buying into big pots when I know I shouldn't... Big pots for big hands, small pots for small hands... Your comment on SB, implied odds, and reverse implied odds puts things in good perspective.

As played pre-flop, once the flop bet gets raised, is folding the correct play? It's obvious that at worst villain has two pair - is it reasonable to not see the turn with a flush draw? I agree with Naruto - the raise screams "I have a hand to protect", and the flush draw is the obvious hand that Villain needs to protect against... I feel the need to see the turn, which unfortunately is going to lead me to feel the need to see the river with my trips/flush draw...

Ignoring the happy result, this kind of "and now I need to see..." generally gets me in big trouble, especially OOP... This is particularly risky from the worst possible position on the table, and not ideal early in a tourney because even if you hit something concrete with Q3s or another speculative hand on the flop, you're unlikely to get paid off OOP. Thanks for the great comment, Jilly.

 

[Jillychemung]

With these exact hands, Qh3H vs 7s5d, on that flop, OP was behind 60-40 and with the turn only improved to 57-43 behind. I really dislike calling an AI when I am behind and have to get lucky and I don't see how OP cannot know he is behind on the flop and the turn here.

IMHO, against likely ranges for 4 opponents, in the SB, playing hands like Q3, K4, J5 etc. in the manner that OP did will end up being a significant loss versus a preflop fold. And I don't think that winning plays like this will really change the amount of top-3 finishes OP will have but they will certainly reduce his overall ROI.

 

[Jillychemung]

As played pre-flop, once the flop bet gets raised, is folding the correct play?

Absolutely, you only have bottom pair with 3rd best FD.

It's obvious that at worst villain has two pair - is it reasonable to not see the turn with a flush draw?

No because even if you do hit the flush how likely is it that it is even a winner?

I agree with Naruto - the raise screams "I have a hand to protect", and the flush draw is the obvious hand that Villain needs to protect against... I feel the need to see the turn, which unfortunately is going to lead me to feel the need to see the river with my trips/flush draw...

The overbet AI here most likely does say 'go away' but it is needed to give the wrong odds to chase the FD with one card to come.

Ignoring the happy result, this kind of "and now I need to see..." generally gets me in big trouble, especially OOP... This is particularly risky from the worst possible position on the table, and not ideal early in a tourney because even if you hit something concrete with Q3s or another speculative hand on the flop, you're unlikely to get paid off OOP.

This is the big key. With hands like Q3 from the SB it is very hard to get paid off big enough to make up for all the losses you suffer.

 

[JoeDi]

I would have thought he was being aggressive with an over pair to avoid he flush.. Apparently he hit the straight from the results but lets face it Considering the turn about 50% of the cards would have a clear winner.. Any heart for the flush or 643 for a boat or quads.. Tough call.. You were small blind so it wasnt a bad call.. These hands are tournament killers .. There really is no right way to play..

 

[wesmi]

There is in my opinion just one way to play this hand correctly. Ladies and gentlemen, that would be a pre-flop fold. Qh 3h, never ever.

A good outcome however.