$15 NL HE MTT: Did I play J's right at the final table?

[canbora]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

15

Game Options

1. Bounty

Currency

$

So... I've been playing cash games the past couple of weeks, trying to improve. So to cleans the pallet, I go back to my element. MTT PKO's.

$15 buy in , poker stars

Final table:
197 entries, I'm at the final table. There's 5 of us left. I have a handful of bounties, but not many, honestly. As we know, the money is split in half with these tourneys. Half bounty, half placement money.

I have 15bb left.

Out of the other four players, 3 are passive. Short/shorter stacks. Its late in the game, most raises go folded. There's one player who folds MOST of the time, but if he randomly likes his hand, regardless of how garbage it is ...like J2 offsuit, he'll call a raise. Especially if you give him odds, like he's in the blind or there's a bunch callers ahead. He's the big stack and this is how he's grown it. But calling with garbage and lucking out every single time.

I look down and see the most hated hand in poker JJ....the jiggideez. Honestly, I'm happy to steal blinds and antes being almost 3BB at this point, thats life blood. 4 other players, any one of them can have a high card, 5 cards to come on the board. Someone is going to have a better card and beat me, but this is a premium hand, I'm short stacked, IF someone calls, a good chance to double up and cripple someone else and set me up for a higher placement.

So, I'm UTG, I just shove. Now.................I figured this was standard and correct as the day is long. I never even questioned it. But I started looking stuff up and from what I've seen this is apparently incorrect?? You're suppose to just raise. It says raise 2x which no one does. Its the norm here is 3x at the table. So, that would leave me with 12 if called, The pot would be 6-8BB. Like.... where are we going with this? I just figured this was standard as the day is long. Its shove or fold. I can't 100% confirm this though. Everything I look up is just in general. can anyone confirm or disprove this?

It says if its a less pair like 9's or 10s or 8's you shove. JK suited, AK offsuit. But I'm suppose to just raise 2x with jacks.??

 

[fundiver199]

15BB is borderline, and if 3 of 4 players behind are shorter, I would also lean towards open jamming. If the other players are bad, maybe I would min-raise QQ+ to induce. But with the rest of my range I would be happy to take down the blinds and antes uncontested, or play a "flip" against, whatever someone calls me with. The charts assume, everyone has 15BB, but that was not the case here. So the charts are more accurate for a situation, where you are the shortest stack. And then I would probably not have an open jamming range with 15BB.

 

[Andyreas]

I'd probably play the same.

But shouldn't we incorporate ICM as well? How short were the other short stacks and what would a pay jump be worth?

 

[fundiver199]

But shouldn't we incorporate ICM as well? How short were the other short stacks and what would a pay jump be worth?

The bounties and player tendencies also matter. With JJ we are very happy to get jammed on, especially by someone we cover. So this is clearly an argument for min-raising. But if CO and BTN have 10-14BB and are passive enough, that they might just call a min-raise, then I lean towards open jamming to prevent that from happening. In that way we can win the bounty, when they give action, and we dont face any awkward decisions OOP on boards with overcards. But if CO and BTN are LAGs or maniacs, then min-raising and snapping off any jam is great.

 

[300HPGOD]

I think FunDiver above hits on it. It depends on what the shorter stacks depths are at. There is a big difference between shorter stacks having 11, 12, and 12.5 BBs vs them having 5, 6, and 8 BBs. If they were smaller than you could min raise more since their potential overcalling hurts you less and those smaller opponents are more likely to jam over you rather than just call. I dont think its a mistake to just jam 15 BBs here with JJ no matter what the stacks are against you. The BB might come along if you just min raise but then you should be way ahead of their range and just need to avoid a double overcard flop to JJ.

 

[canbora]

Thank you gentleman..

A bit more info.

I cant get the saved folder because poker tracker takes everything from my folder and I don't know where it keeps the tourney stuff and I played a cash game after so I cant access the last hand.

Overall prize pool was total $2.6K

Its a PKO, so first and second are the same. I believe it was $207 a piece. I've had the good fortune of actually winning this tourny before in the past so I estimate first prize is about $700-$750-ish (total). Second should be about 1/3 to 1/2 of that, total, or so with this many people. Depending on EXACTLY how many bounties you have. At this point, theres 5 of us left. Without bounties, I think my prize was $84. So.. just figure anywhere from 50%-100% more as a rule of thumb. So you can do the math for places there, we only have 3rd and 4th place to figure out.

Stack sizes. Again, 5 of us. I have the shortest at 15bb. I think the largest, the guy who would just randomly call... he was the big stack (comically enough, his username was something like "crzyN00b ). He had like 62bb, or so. (I checked tourney history, he was next to bust out). That leaves three of us. I think the next stack up from me wasnt much more, I believe they were 18bb. Middle stack was around 24bb or so. And second largest stack was like 42bb, I think.

 

[fundiver199]

Stack sizes. Again, 5 of us. I have the shortest at 15bb. I think the largest, the guy who would just randomly call... he was the big stack (comically enough, his username was something like "crzyN00b ). He had like 62bb, or so. (I checked tourney history, he was next to bust out). That leaves three of us. I think the next stack up from me wasnt much more, I believe they were 18bb. Middle stack was around 24bb or so. And second largest stack was like 42bb, I think.

Ok so when you originally wrote "short/shorter", that did not mean shorter than you but in an absolute sense. Then I would prefer to min-raise JJ with 15BB. As the shortest stack you are looking for a dubble up especially in a PKO, so you are very happy to induce a 3-bet and play a flip. Typically people are going to have a narrower range for calling a 15BB jam than for 3-betting a min-raise. And all those hands, that fold rather than 3-bet, are some, you want to get action from: Smaller pairs, A2-AJ, most broadways. The only positive outcome of open jamming JJ is to get KQ specifically to fold. QQ+ will always call, and so will usually AQ+. And this is why, the solver dont open jam JJ but does it with lower pairs, that benefit more from protection. For instance its great to get 3-bet by ATs or QJs, when we have JJ, but not when we have 88 or 99.

 

[canbora]

Ok so when you originally wrote "short/shorter", that did not mean shorter than you but in an absolute sense. Then I would prefer to min-raise JJ with 15BB. As the shortest stack you are looking for a dubble up especially in a PKO, so you are very happy to induce a 3-bet and play a flip. Typically people are going to have a narrower range for calling a 15BB jam than for 3-betting a min-raise. And all those hands, that fold rather than 3-bet, are some, you want to get action from: Smaller pairs, A2-AJ, most broadways. The only positive outcome of open jamming JJ is to get KQ specifically to fold. QQ+ will always call, and so will usually AQ+. And this is why, the solver dont open jam JJ but does it with lower pairs, that benefit more from protection. For instance its great to get 3-bet by ATs or QJs, when we have JJ, but not when we have 88 or 99.

gotcha... so THAT was in fact the plan. The hand is strong enough to lure and induce. got it. See I didn't think that. I figured you'd want to jam. But I get it now.

I was in the same game last night. I got 12th. I made an error on one hand that COULD have changed the game for me. I had 22 in the BB. 6 people to the flop with a min raise. I hit my set on a dry board. I only had just less than the pot, so I jammed under the gun. Everyone folded. The game was wild last night. Lots of short stacks going all in with AA vs K5. It was crazy. I thought for sure someone would have a 10 or a 7 ...or two clubs or possibly 98 and would roll for it. But no one did. I of course felt stupid afterward. With six people in the pot and two clubs out there. I felt it was a bit risky. I feel this was wrong too. Oh well. Live and learn. And on the other hand I may have gotten nothing more or little more or possibly lost.

Finally busted out, I had less than six bigs left. was card dead. I got queen eight suited on the button. middle position min raised. Im like here it is. I went all in he of course called, He had Ace nine of clubs. I caught three eights, but he hit a straight. I was out. good for him.

 

[fundiver199]

I made an error on one hand that COULD have changed the game for me. I had 22 in the BB. 6 people to the flop with a min raise. I hit my set on a dry board. I only had just less than the pot, so I jammed under the gun. Everyone folded.

Yeah I would probably check here and allow someone else to bet, and then check-raise all-in. Leading into 5 opponents would have more merit, if it was a wet board, where you really dont want it to get checked through. But on a board like Q72 rainbow we dont mind delaying the action to the turn.

 

[canbora]

Yeah I would probably check here and allow someone else to bet, and then check-raise all-in. Leading into 5 opponents would have more merit, if it was a wet board, where you really dont want it to get checked through. But on a board like Q72 rainbow we dont mind delaying the action to the turn.

Yeah I think if I were to evaluate the, correctness, of this play in the methodology of how a solver does it. I would use a percentage scale. Meaning I don't think it was ridiculous. I don't know if you play in these kind of tournaments but the action is just insane. There's a high likelihood that I could have been called. It happens all the time.....BUT.... At this point in the tournament, especially with my stack size I really needed chips and it probably wasn't the best choice to put that to chance. I SHOULD have gone with the more sure thing and I should have checked raised and taking my chances that way instead of the way that I did. Again. Oh well. Next time gadget, next time.

 

[makisaa]

So... I've been playing cash games the past couple of weeks, trying to improve. So to cleans the pallet, I go back to my element. MTT PKO's.

$15 buy in , Poker Stars

Final table:
197 entries, I'm at the final table. There's 5 of us left. I have a handful of bounties, but not many, honestly. As we know, the money is split in half with these tourneys. Half bounty, half placement money.

I have 15bb left.

Out of the other four players, 3 are passive. Short/shorter stacks. Its late in the game, most raises go folded. There's one player who folds MOST of the time, but if he randomly likes his hand, regardless of how garbage it is ...like J2 offsuit, he'll call a raise. Especially if you give him odds, like he's in the blind or there's a bunch callers ahead. He's the big stack and this is how he's grown it. But calling with garbage and lucking out every single time.

I look down and see the most hated hand in poker JJ....the jiggideez. Honestly, I'm happy to steal blinds and antes being almost 3BB at this point, thats life blood. 4 other players, any one of them can have a high card, 5 cards to come on the board. Someone is going to have a better card and beat me, but this is a premium hand, I'm short stacked, IF someone calls, a good chance to double up and cripple someone else and set me up for a higher placement.

So, I'm UTG, I just shove. Now.................I figured this was standard and correct as the day is long. I never even questioned it. But I started looking stuff up and from what I've seen this is apparently incorrect?? You're suppose to just raise. It says raise 2x which no one does. Its the norm here is 3x at the table. So, that would leave me with 12 if called, The pot would be 6-8BB. Like.... where are we going with this? I just figured this was standard as the day is long. Its shove or fold. I can't 100% confirm this though. Everything I look up is just in general. can anyone confirm or disprove this?

It says if its a less pair like 9's or 10s or 8's you shove. JK suited, AK offsuit. But I'm suppose to just raise 2x with jacks.??

Final table and short stacked, if a JJ appears, all in is a good choice. Of course it depends from the situation and the informations from the game. And according to the information you give us with passive opponents all in is a good choice.

 

[canbora]

Final table and short stacked, if a JJ appears, all in is a good choice. Of course it depends from the situation and the informations from the game. And according to the information you give us with passive opponents all in is a good choice.

Yeah thats why I didnt question it, but i like to review certain hands after play to improve, see where I went wrong or right, etc. And I was shocked when i looked this up and it said otherwise.