$11 NLHE: What do you here

[Grossberger]

$11 NL HE: What do you here

*********** # 5 **************
pokerstars Game #36973461478: Tournament #239010867, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2009/12/20 20:51:29 ET
Table '239010867 229' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Zamanuschka (5043 in chips)
Seat 2: petrosgio (8205 in chips)
Seat 3: Grossberger (6502 in chips)
Seat 4: Jessica318 (8109 in chips)
Seat 5: cjcny73 (14029 in chips)
Seat 6: cguido10 (3565 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: dobouy (9670 in chips)
Seat 8: Camp77 (11626 in chips)
Seat 9: Katsouranis1 (11825 in chips)
Zamanuschka: posts the ante 25
petrosgio: posts the ante 25
Grossberger: posts the ante 25
Jessica318: posts the ante 25
cjcny73: posts the ante 25
cguido10: posts the ante 25
dobouy: posts the ante 25
Camp77: posts the ante 25
Katsouranis1: posts the ante 25
petrosgio: posts small blind 125
Grossberger: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Grossberger [3c 7s]
Jessica318: calls 250
cjcny73: folds
cguido10: folds
dobouy: folds
Camp77: folds
Katsouranis1: calls 250
Zamanuschka: calls 250
petrosgio: calls 125
Grossberger: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ad 7h 7d]
petrosgio: checks
Grossberger: bets 500
Jessica318: calls 500
Katsouranis1: folds
Zamanuschka: folds
petrosgio: folds
*** TURN *** [Ad 7h 7d] [3s]
Grossberger: checks
Jessica318: bets 1000
Grossberger: calls 1000
*** RIVER *** [Ad 7h 7d 3s] [Ah]

What would you do at this point???

 

[justinx]

I think I could raise this position,cause if you check this,you will lose..I don't think He is holding A.. :s

 

[cjatud2012]

I don't know about you, but at least for me, it's easier to figure out what the situation is when the hand is converted: http://www.handconverter.com/

1st thing-- bet more on the flop. If someone limped with two diamonds here (which is highly likely), it is correct to call because you offered them the right odds. Make them call with incorrect odds: that is what you really want.

I would only check here if I intended on check-raising. Personally, I would still bet out here, because a lot of players won't bet the turn if they were bet into on the flop, which means you 1) risk losing a lot of value and 2) risk giving a free card that could hurt you, which did happen in this case.

On the river, I would likely just check-call here. This is a passive move, but I believe it's right for many reasons. First, you can't push your opponent off of an ace here, no matter how aggressive you are. Second, you may induce your opponent to bluff/ value-bet thin with pocket pairs here, given how weak you've played the turn and now the river, whereas a bet would cause your opponent to fold these types of hands. Third, given his bet-sizing on the turn, I would suspect that his river bet will be relatively small. So you're not risking a lot if he holds an ace, and, as mentioned previously, you will gain value from his weaker holdings. That is, he will likely fold his weaker holdings if you try to value-bet for a decent amount, but you gain value from the times he bets his hands that he would otherwise fold, even if the bet is smaller (hope this last part makes sense).

 

[switch0723]

You want to be getting all of your chips in the middle after this flop, so bet more on the flop since there is ~1.5k in the pot? So bet closer to 1k.

Definately follow this up by betting the turn, you want to bet enough so that you can shove hte river for about a pot size bet. Why did you check the turn? If you had a read that villain is aggressive, then its fine a guess, but becuase you wil be out of position on the river, c/r the turn. What are you planning to do on the river otherwise (if it wasn't an ace)? Lead out? or check again?

As played, i check/re-evaluate based on size of bet

 

[bolda3]

I would raise the turn here. But anyway, check calling the river is probably the best move here as stated by cjatud. Betting won't get an opponent of an A ever, but you can check call here hoping for a small pp.

 

[robwhufc]

..I don't think He is holding A.. :s

Well he's probably a she, but why not? A weak Ace fits perfect here

1st thing-- bet more on the flop. If someone limped with two diamonds here (which is highly likely), it is correct to call because you offered them the right odds.

No, it's highly UNlikely that one of the 3 limpers has specifically 2 diamonds. You don't have to flush panic everytime you see 2 of the same suit on board.

You want to be getting all of your chips in the middle after this flop, so bet more on the flop since there is ~1.5k in the pot? So bet closer to 1k.

Definately follow this up by betting the turn, you want to bet enough so that you can shove hte river for about a pot size bet. Why did you check the turn?

I disagree, I like the line here (even without the turn giving full house). Weak bet on an Ace flop (i would have bet nearer your 1K personally, 800 or so), then check implies either weak Ace, under pair, or failed bluff. Opponent has no idea what you've got, this has disguised trip 7's nicely.

The river has killed the hand though - hopefully if you check, they'll check behind and you'll pick up the pot.

 

[switch0723]

I disagree, I like the line here (even without the turn giving full house). Weak bet on an Ace flop (i would have bet nearer your 1K personally, 800 or so), then check implies either weak Ace, under pair, or failed bluff. Opponent has no idea what you've got, this has disguised trip 7's nicely.

The river has killed the hand though - hopefully if you check, they'll check behind and you'll pick up the pot.

the problem with c/c the turn, is that the river becomes hard to play, do you lead or check on like a 9 river?

 

[mrjohnson911]

the flop bet is way too small imo... 500 in to 1.5 k pot..
also I'd lead again on the turn, there is no way they'll put you on a FH..
if you go for the check I'd c/r here... also if villains holding a weak A I doubt he his folding to a c/r to about 2700... river kills our your hand.. you have to check.. there s no value in betting as you wont get called unless youre behind.. fold to a big bet..

 

[brianvoytek]

I check call in this spot. Because If you bet out and get raised, what do you do? If anything this could be a missed flush. But I'm thinking a weak ace is more likely.

 

[Grossberger]

Updated below with the result highlight to see it and what I was thinking in the hand also.

*********** # 5 **************
PokerStars Game #36973461478: Tournament #239010867, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2009/12/20 20:51:29 ET
Table '239010867 229' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Zamanuschka (5043 in chips)
Seat 2: petrosgio (8205 in chips)
Seat 3: Grossberger (6502 in chips)
Seat 4: Jessica318 (8109 in chips)
Seat 5: cjcny73 (14029 in chips)
Seat 6: cguido10 (3565 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: dobouy (9670 in chips)
Seat 8: Camp77 (11626 in chips)
Seat 9: Katsouranis1 (11825 in chips)
Zamanuschka: posts the ante 25
petrosgio: posts the ante 25
Grossberger: posts the ante 25
Jessica318: posts the ante 25
cjcny73: posts the ante 25
cguido10: posts the ante 25
dobouy: posts the ante 25
Camp77: posts the ante 25
Katsouranis1: posts the ante 25
petrosgio: posts small blind 125
Grossberger: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Grossberger [3c 7s]
Jessica318: calls 250
cjcny73: folds
cguido10: folds
dobouy: folds
Camp77: folds
Katsouranis1: calls 250
Zamanuschka: calls 250
petrosgio: calls 125
Grossberger: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ad 7h 7d]
petrosgio: checks
Grossberger: bets 500
Jessica318: calls 500
Katsouranis1: folds
Zamanuschka: folds
petrosgio: folds
*** TURN *** [Ad 7h 7d] [3s]
Grossberger: checks
Jessica318: bets 1000
Grossberger: calls 1000
*** RIVER *** [Ad 7h 7d 3s] [Ah]
Grossberger: checks
Jessica318: bets 6334 and is all-in
Grossberger: folds
Uncalled bet (6334) returned to Jessica318
Jessica318 collected 4475 from pot
Jessica318: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4475 | Rake 0
Board [Ad 7h 7d 3s Ah]
Seat 1: Zamanuschka (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: petrosgio (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Grossberger (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: Jessica318 collected (4475)
Seat 5: cjcny73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 6: cguido10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: dobouy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Camp77 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Katsouranis1 folded on the Flop

I put them on a weak ace, the check on the turn was to make it seem like I did not have a 7 that the flop bet was just a steal.Thought if I just check call they put me on a weak ace also.

 

[ImolAyrton]

First of all it was very easy to avoid this.. You should have bet a higher amount on the flop like 2/3 of the pot. Than the turn, nice check but than CHECK-RAISE THE DUDE MAN! You know he was either bluffing, he had an Ace or he had a 7. Well its not very likely he was bluffing. So if he had an Ace, you dont want him to draw an other ace so raise the ****in dude to get him of his hand. You got unlucky on the river. I would check-fold.

 

[RJB-7]

I dont mind bet on flop, but you have to c/r river here. As switch says, what would you have done if it came a blank on the river? led? check and hope to induce another bet? Your best line here is to c/r turn to get maximum value from the hand.

 

[RJB-7]

First of all it was very easy to avoid this.. You should have bet a higher amount on the flop like 2/3 of the pot. Than the turn, nice check but than CHECK-RAISE THE DUDE MAN! You know he was either bluffing, he had an Ace or he had a 7. Well its not very likely he was bluffing. So if he had an Ace, you dont want him to draw an other ace so raise the ****in dude to get him of his hand. You got unlucky on the river. I would check-fold.

Also, why the f*ck would u want to get him off his hand when you basically have the nuts? Your looking to extract maximum value here, not get him off his hand to avoid a suckout!

 

[Grossberger]

I dont mind bet on flop, but you have to c/r river here. As switch says, what would you have done if it came a blank on the river? led? check and hope to induce another bet? Your best line here is to c/r turn to get maximum value from the hand.

Didnt have that option LOL I think you meant turn.

 

[RJB-7]

Indeed i did mean turn MY BAD!

 

[robwhufc]

I dont mind bet on flop, but you have to c/r turn here. As switch says, what would you have done if it came a blank on the river? led? check and hope to induce another bet? Your best line here is to c/r turn to get maximum value from the hand.

I'm not sure I agree. The hand is quite easy to evaluate on the flop, you've flopped trips and you are only realistically going to get chips from someone with an Ace, and on an unraised multiway flop it's not unlikely that someone has got a 7, so you have to play it cute. You need to disguise the hand so your opponent thinks you have got a weaker ace or are trying to buy the pot on a dangerous board. If you check raise the turn you are telling opponent you are confident you have the best hand, and you are surely only confident if you have a 7 aren't you? You don't want opponent folding here.

I'd do exactly as Grossberger has done here - fire out a weak bet, then check/call the turn to disguise the strength of the hand.

On the river(assuming no Ace of course) i'd lead off with 1.5K or so into the 4K pot - you want the opponent to call, and don't want to scare them off - I don't think you'll stack every player who has got an Ace here, if your opponent is the kind of player to overplay top pair then they'll reraise you on the river anyway and you'd be in the same situation.

 

[RJB-7]

If you c/r turn then your opponent will be thinking 'would he c/r me if he had trips? surely hed disguise it' sometimes playing fast is more of an advantage.

 

[robwhufc]

If you c/r turn then your opponent will be thinking 'would he c/r me if he had trips? surely hed disguise it' sometimes playing fast is more of an advantage.

3rd level thinking? From someone that limped under the gun, then called the flop with 4 players still to act? You're overthinking it, she knows what hand she's got, and can see from the board she hasn't got the nuts - and that's probably it.

 

[RJB-7]

3rd level thinking? From someone that limped under the gun, then called the flop with 4 players still to act? You're overthinking it, she knows what hand she's got, and can see from the board she hasn't got the nuts - and that's probably it.

Aint really 3rd level thinking, most average opponents in that situation would think 'if i had the trips i would slow play it to disguise my hand' so therefore if you do the opposite it usually works well. Obv im not saying always works and obv depends on situation etc. I just think in this spot its best to fast play to get most value. Also after villain calling bet on flop then betting turn it looks as if theyre willing to commit chips to this pot. I still say c/r turn 100%

 

[robwhufc]

Aint really 3rd level thinking, most average opponents in that situation would think 'if i had the trips i would slow play it to disguise my hand' so therefore if you do the opposite it usually works well.

I'm not really sure hand is interesting enough to discuss much further - maybe they'd have called check raise and you would have stacked them on the river, and maybe they would have folded to a check raise but would have called a similar bet on the river. We wont know. I dont agree with the above though, not from my observations of poker (especially at up to $10 level). I don't think the "average" opponent (and by average I mean poor) is giving any thought at all to why you are making certain plays - they understand the strength of their own hand, and take actions literally - if a third diamond comes on river and you bet, then you've got 2 diamonds, regardless of the previous betting history. I would treat your opponents as stupid and timid (especially when they have shown themselves to be so), unless they show you something different - I just played (and won) a $6 SNG, and I would say pretty much the entire table were clueless.

 

[switch0723]

It should be noted that quite simply betting turn and then river is better than any 'check and do something when they do something' option

 

[WiZZiM]

Also, why the f*ck would u want to get him off his hand when you basically have the nuts? Your looking to extract maximum value here, not get him off his hand to avoid a suckout!

it came from a PLO player..... but yes i agree, thats the last thing youd want to be thinking i would imagine... pretty sick river..

the turn is tricky, the check was good i think, but i still think even though it looks super strong the c/r would have been good, it becomes tricky on the river if the ace didnt hit.. check and hope she bets?? likely a weak ace checks there, and if she bets a weak ace there, its likely you get the chips in no matter what you did. the c/r looks super strong, but i think you will get paid by A10+ most of the time.. especially with that diamond draw, could look like your semibluffing.