$11 NL HE MTT: Sunday Storm Anniversary: "Flip" with whole stack and A8o for a nice bounty?

[Andyreas]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

11

Game Options

1. Rebuy

Currency

$

Hi guys,

this is a hand of Day 2 from Sunday Storm anniversary.

I am short stack with 9 BBs and UTG jams which I have slightly covered. Folds to me in the BB and I have to decide if I want to call with A8o. If I lose, I am auto-all-in in the next hand. His (total) bounty is $41.25. So if I win, I add around $20 to my balance. (Starting bounty is $2.50.)

I folded since I am behind any decent Ace and likely only one over against a decent pocket pair. Do you agree on the fold?

pokerstars, $9.80 + $1.20 - Hold'em No Limit - 7,500/15,000 (1,800 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 131,691 (9 bb)
UTG+1: 260,372 (17 bb)
MP: 519,369 (35 bb)
MP+1: 549,300 (37 bb)
CO: 249,890 (17 bb)
BU: 940,268 (63 bb)
SB: 41,300 (3 bb)
BB (Hero): 139,126 (9 bb)

Pre-Flop: (36,900) Hero is BB with 8♥ A♦
UTG raises to 129,891 (all-in), 6 players fold, BB (Hero) folds

Total pot: 51,900
UTG wins 51,900

 

[puzzlefish]

Is he a complete donk or did he follow decent ranges and got sucked out on to get down to 9bb?

 

[Andyreas]

Is he a complete donk or did he follow decent ranges and got sucked out on to get down to 9bb?

If I remember correctly, he called behind a few times with okay hands for a bounty but never got there which cost him a few blinds each time.

His stats are 22/17 but only on 23 hands.

So no clear read - but also not a maniac or complete donk

 

[puzzlefish]

If I remember correctly, he called behind a few times with okay hands for a bounty but never got there which cost him a few blinds each time.

His stats are 22/17 but only on 23 hands.

So no clear read - but also not a maniac or complete donk

I think then you will probably be behind here and not worth calling it off, especially if he has been waiting for a while to shove.

 

[kon44]

Yer, I agree with the fold. Its far better to be the one pushing than the one calling for a start. When you push your chips to the centre it also carries the weight of the image you have created on the table. I’ve played with you and I’d imagine you don’t get called unless your extremely light chip wise. Your stack is still good to double up over an orbit or two... better to pick up the loose bits on the way as you wait for the big bump ups.

And the bounties get bigger the longer you tuff it out. Good luck 🤞

 

[kon44]

Anyways, you be making it final table lol... I want my cut haha 😜

 

[fundiver199]

Without a bounty in play this is a fold. The bounty could change that, but in order to properly evaluate the situation, we need to know the starting stack, because this is how, we convert the bounty to chips and determine your true pot odds. If for instance his bounty was worth 200.000 chips, then your calling range should be any two cards. But if his bounty was only worth 2.000 chips, then you should just use your normal calling range.

 

[Andyreas]

Anyways, you be making it final table lol... I want my cut haha 😜

Unfortunately no share. I finished 985th.

Without a bounty in play this is a fold. The bounty could change that, but in order to properly evaluate the situation, we need to know the starting stack, because this is how, we convert the bounty to chips and determine your true pot odds. If for instance his bounty was worth 200.000 chips, then your calling range should be any two cards. But if his bounty was only worth 2.000 chips, then you should just use your normal calling range.

I'm always unsure how to do that conversion. But the starting stack was 10K chips. And the min-bounty is $2.5.

If you have the time, I'd love to see the calculation to be able to learn how to do it. 🙏

 

[kon44]

Unfortunately no share. I finished 985th.


I'm always unsure how to do that conversion. But the starting stack was 10K chips. And the min-bounty is $2.5.

If you have the time, I'd love to see the calculation to be able to learn how to do it. 🙏

Think my body is somewhere at the bae of that massive mountain you climbed. Good run though fella, you pick up a decent side of collected scalps? That’s the beauty of playing PKO’s over anything else.

 

[Andyreas]

you pick up a decent side of collected scalps

Not that many. Only knocked out two players but for $20 in total and $25 prize money. Could be better, could be worse. 🤣

 

[mtl mile end]

I assume that you were not in the money yet?
Did you have any bounties collected already?

It seems to me that his bounty is quite large. My immediate reaction to this is call all day, every day, unless I'm missing something. You are short stack, you should be the target of the table. You can take a bounty that is twice the total of a buy-in (in the bank, 4X total) - I assume that this is the only bounty available to your short stack. You have miraculously had everyone fold to you so that the only bounty on the table for you is available - CALL.

If this guy was the tightest tight ass on planet earth, and everyone folded because of that, I would call.

EDIT: watched the replay.
The shorty short stack should be targeted by everyone - did he have a big bounty?
You are a double up away from being relevant on this table.

 

[Andyreas]

I assume that you were not in the money yet?

This is already ITM. Around 2K/71K participants left but prize amounts still within the min-cash ranges. (About 2x buyin.)

Did you have any bounties collected already?

Yes, I have two KOs for $20 in total. My bounty on the table shows as $12.

It seems to me that his bounty is quite large.

At this stage of the tournament most of the bounties have become quite large. I think most of the table has a bounty in a similar range. I can look up the details later on my notebook.

If this guy was the tightest tight ass on planet earth, and everyone folded because of that, I would call.

Love that comment. 😆

The shorty short stack should be targeted by everyone - did he have a big bounty?
You are a double up away from being relevant on this table.

I was so hoping that shorty jammed from SB into my BB in an unopened pot but BN and CO always jammed over us, which of course is what they should do.

If I remember correctly, this guy still had the starting bounty.

Probably he was the tightest ass since he recovered later and finally busted me, if I remember correctly. 😅

 

[fundiver199]

If you have the time, I'd love to see the calculation to be able to learn how to do it. 🙏

I think, this is something, a lot of players dont fully understand, and to be honest neither did I, until I watched a Youtube video explaining it. But fundamentally the value of a tournament chip at the beginning of the tournament is the total price pool devided with the total amount of chips in play. So in this example 10.000 chips is worth 9.8$ assuming, that there wont be an overlay. A starting bounty of 5$, where you are rewarded half of it, is therefore worth 2,5$ / 9,8$ * 10.000 chips = 2.500 chips.

In this case you can win 20$, which at the beginning of the tournament would have a chip value of around 20.000 chips. However because some money have already been distributed in bounties and small cashes (including what remaining players have locked up), each chip is now worth less. If for instance 1/3 of the total price pool is already distributed, then a 20$ bounty is now worth 20.000 / 0,67 = 30.000 chips.

In this case you had to put in 116k to win a total pot of 282k, so without the bounty you would need 41,3% equity in chip EV. However with the bounty the pot is actually going to be 312k from your perspective, and then you only need 37,3% equity in chip EV. Normally we want to have more than chip EV equity to call off our entire stack to compensate for ICM.

But in a PKO it is actually reasonable to play much closer to chip EV or maybe even take on slightly negative EV spots. If you call here and win, not only do you get a bounty right now. You also put yourself in a position, where you can contend for the bounty of two more players, who are currently sitting with 17BB. Whereas if you fold, you can not even content for UTGs bounty in the next hand.

So the final question of course is, do you then have 37,3% equity against UTGs range? Obviously this will depend on, which range we assign him. But I think, its at least a lot closer than, what many respondents seem to assume. Yes you are crushed by all his better AX and pocket pairs 88 and higher. But he should also have suited wheel aces, suited broadways and KQo, which you are slightly ahead of. Its probably not a big deal, if you call or fold here, but at least it is hopefully now clear to everyone, how the math is done

 

[ADRI7HO]

Hi guys,

this is a hand of Day 2 from Sunday Storm anniversary.

I am short stack with 9 BBs and UTG jams which I have slightly covered. Folds to me in the BB and I have to decide if I want to call with A8o. If I lose, I am auto-all-in in the next hand. His (total) bounty is $41.25. So if I win, I add around $20 to my balance. (Starting bounty is $2.50.)

I folded since I am behind any decent Ace and likely only one over against a decent pocket pair. Do you agree on the fold?

PokerStars, $9.80 + $1.20 - Hold'em No Limit - 7,500/15,000 (1,800 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 131,691 (9 bb)
UTG+1: 260,372 (17 bb)
MP: 519,369 (35 bb)
MP+1: 549,300 (37 bb)
CO: 249,890 (17 bb)
BU: 940,268 (63 bb)
SB: 41,300 (3 bb)
BB (Hero): 139,126 (9 bb)

Pre-Flop: (36,900) Hero is BB with 8♥ A♦
UTG raises to 129,891 (all-in), 6 players fold, BB (Hero) folds

Total pot: 51,900
UTG wins 51,900

In this case, a similarly short stack went all-in from UTG (which you can also knock out with a bit more chips), so if everyone else had folded, I probably would have called, because it would have been a good chance to double up before the blinds completely they eat me.
By the way, since everyone folded after the all-in player, there is a chance that out there didn't have a strong hand for anyone, so he probably had a minimum of an Ace and I think some kind of broadway card, but you can't win a tournament by guessing, so I called would be anyway, and I hope to win.

 

[Andyreas]

If for instance 1/3 of the total price pool is already distributed, then a 20$ bounty is now worth 20.000 / 0,67 = 30.000 chips.

I cannot entirely recall when the hand took place but if it was around when 2k players were left, then there was around 40% of the regular prize pool distributed. Since the regular prize pool is only 50% of total pool, does this now account for 20% or 40%?

I think most of the table has a bounty in a similar range. I can look up the details later on my notebook.

Okay, not exactly similar but pretty relevant bounties / except the super shorty:
UTG ($41.25 bounty)
UTG + 1 ($26.87 bounty)
MP ($55.62 bounty)
MP+1 ($44.52 bounty)
CO ($17.34 bounty)
BN ($52.80 bounty)
SB ($5 bounty)
BB ($25.38 bounty)

 

[fundiver199]

I cannot entirely recall when the hand took place but if it was around when 2k players were left, then there was around 40% of the regular prize pool distributed. Since the regular prize pool is only 50% of total pool, does this now account for 20% or 40%?

Bounties rewarded have also been taken out of the price pool. So more likely close to 40% had already been distributed. Which pushes it a bit more towards a call. The main point here is, that strategy for PKOs is actually different. A mantra like "its better to push than call" is for regular MTTs or SnGs. When we can win someones bounty, this goes right out the window. And because of future play there is almost, what we can call "negative ICM" in a PKO. Surviving has little value, if we are unable to contend for bounties, since they are at the end of the day half the price pool.

As a simple example we can take a classic 9-man SnG. If two players collide in the first hand of such a game, and one bust the other, then this benefit everyone else in the tournament, since their chips are now worth a bit more. However if its a KO 9-man, as those Stars have, then its just the opposite. The player knocking someone else out in the first hand more than dubble his EV, and the 7 remaining players take a small loss, since they can no longer win the bounty of the player, who was knocked out. And if top of that the player winning the first all-in is now in a great situation to win further bounties, because he have everyone else covered.

 

[AKQ]

If I remember correctly, he called behind a few times with okay hands for a bounty but never got there which cost him a few blinds each time.

His stats are 22/17 but only on 23 hands.

So no clear read - but also not a maniac or complete donk

even if he is cold shoving utg with any pair ak aq or even k10 109s

a8o is not ahead against any of it,
and is practically flipping against the k10


but its not like your'e completely dead either