$1000 NLHE MTT: $1,000 NLHE MTT: WSOP Fold KK on a Q high board?

[Jacki Burkhart]

This is another hand from my 2013 wsop trip.

At this stage blinds are 50/100 no ante. starting stacks are 3,000. I have about 7,400.

I have a tight, solid image. Basically chipped up through a run of good cards that the whole table got to see a showdown each time, so they know I play strong hands. Although I am usually tight aggressive, this table may see me as a tad passive because of the specific way a few hands went down.

anyways...early position player A is a VERY strong player. Has 3 WSOP circuit rings and 1 bracelet. Raises it up to 225 off a stack of about 6,000

Player B is in the cut-off has about 2,700 and flat calls. seems a bit loose, a tad passive.

I am on the button and look down at and raise it up to 800.

Player A thinks, then flat calls. I'm now putting the range at QQ+ or AK. JJ is a possibility, but I don't think player A would flat call MY 3Bet out of position with JJ with another player to act...but it's still possible.

Player B flat calls. This range is wider and includes medium pocket pairs, though the overcall implies strength, because this player has seen A lot of flops I take it to mean they don't like to fold preflop...I think player B may be set mining....

Pot contains 2,550.

Flop comes

Player A leads out for 1,500.

Player B folds.

me....? I tank, fold. All I'm beating in Player A's perceived range is AK and would AK really bet into 2 people out of position in a 3bet pot like this?

What do you think?

 

[Jillychemung]

Pretty sticky spot. A has already seen B flat once so his choice to flat your 3-bet appears to be giving B the bait to reshove. With stack sizes, the 1500 donk lead pretty much commits A's whole stack if you call, so A will be shoving almost any turn. As I see it your only option is to shove or fold here. Given your read I can't fault the fold.

 

[spiderman637]

Hmmm...nice scenario...frankly i think i would have called his bet....i think he might have put u on AK and wanted you to fold postflop...hence the big bet post flop...to an extent its possible he hit trips of jacks and dont want u to continue the game and catch the straight(considering he still put u on AK)

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Hmmm...nice scenario...frankly i think i would have called his bet....i think he might have put u on AK and wanted you to fold postflop...hence the big bet post flop...to an extent its possible he hit trips of jacks and dont want u to continue the game and catch the straight(considering he still put u on AK)

Yes. I considered the fact that A put me on AK...but even so...what do I put player A on to make that move? TT? AK? It's hard for me to picture a hand that I'm beating right there when A leads into 2 people...but I also thought if A flopped a set wouldn't they check to the raiser to induce action?

I don't know... The reason I folded wasn't because I was positive I was beat...I folded because I figured I'd be making a decision for all my chips on the turn and I just felt like I could find a better spot.

I still wonder about this hand though....

 

[Arjonius]

I wonder if you took into account how likely it is that A thought you were capable of squeezing. If so, I'd tend to put him on at least a somewhat wider range than QQ+ AK.

Also, how tight did you think his image of you was?

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I wonder if you took into account how likely it is that A thought you were capable of squeezing. If so, I'd tend to put him on at least a somewhat wider range than QQ+ AK.

Also, how tight did you think his image of you was?

Well, at the $1000 level I think we all realize every player is capable of squeezing...it's not a very advanced move for that level if play

How tight was my image? Extremely tight. I'd only showed down AA, QQ and a nut flush.

My thought was "Player A thinks I'm very strong, and is still leading into 2 players including the raiser OOP"

 

[WiZZiM]

think we have to call at least one street here, then decide on the turn. I agree with arjonius, i wouldn't have put him on such a tight range here, keep in mind it's good for him to be in a pot with the other guy, and he might not perceive you in the way you think he perceives you.

i call/ then decide how strong he is on the turn. if he checks, jackpot, if he bets, we can then make the laydown. he could easily be doing this with stuff we still beat and hopefully our call on the flop will slow him down into a potcontrol type line, which is fine with us.

 

[AtiFCOD]

This is another hand from my 2013 WSOP trip.

At this stage blinds are 50/100 no ante. starting stacks are 3,000. I have about 7,400.

I have a tight, solid image. Basically chipped up through a run of good cards that the whole table got to see a showdown each time, so they know I play strong hands. Although I am usually tight aggressive, this table may see me as a tad passive because of the specific way a few hands went down.

anyways...early position player A is a VERY strong player. Has 3 WSOP circuit rings and 1 bracelet. Raises it up to 225 off a stack of about 6,000

Player B is in the cut-off has about 2,700 and flat calls. seems a bit loose, a tad passive.

I am on the button and look down at and raise it up to 800.

Player A thinks, then flat calls. I'm now putting the range at QQ+ or AK. JJ is a possibility, but I don't think player A would flat call MY 3Bet out of position with JJ with another player to act...but it's still possible.

Player B flat calls. This range is wider and includes medium pocket pairs, though the overcall implies strength, because this player has seen A lot of flops I take it to mean they don't like to fold preflop...I think player B may be set mining....

Pot contains 2,550.

Flop comes

Player A leads out for 1,500.

Player B folds.

me....? I tank, fold. All I'm beating in Player A's perceived range is AK and would AK really bet into 2 people out of position in a 3bet pot like this?

What do you think?

I would just call and see the turn. We are very strong with the overpair, so I wouldnt fold it especially against a pro.

 

[duggs]

1ks are uber soft live. calling, letting him jam turns. he won't be flatting all QQ+ AK combos, unless you literally think he has no 4bet range?

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

1ks are uber soft live. calling, letting him jam turns. he won't be flatting all QQ+ AK combos, unless you literally think he has no 4bet range?

What makes you say that 1ks are uber soft? There aren't many tourneys offered above $1k most of the time...so do you think EVERYTHING under $10k is "soft". Or do you just assume that all live play is soft?

And even if that us true...did you read my description if this player? 3 WSOP circuit rings and 1 WSOP bracelet. So even if you really do believe that a field is soft...if you're in a hand with a very talented player you need to adjust.

But, still I can see the merit to calling on the flop. Even though I didn't include AQ in the range, it would make sense with the preflop action and flop bet.

So if I call on the flop, I need to have a plan.

What to do if I'm facing a turn bet? (Most likely all in)

What to do if the turn is checked to me?

 

[duggs]

whats your 3betting range pre?

 

[Arjonius]

Well, at the $1000 level I think we all realize every player is capable of squeezing...it's not a very advanced move for that level if play

Agreed. But this means you have to assume that he's putting you on a range that includes some chance you're squeezing.

Player B has something, but he flatted the opening then was getting better than 3:1 when he called your 3bet, so his range isn't all that strong either.

So when A leads the flop into both of you, is he necessarily super-strong?

How tight was my image? Extremely tight. I'd only showed down AA, QQ and a nut flush.

My thought was "Player A thinks I'm very strong, and is still leading into 2 players including the raiser OOP"

A thinks you're very strong or he thinks you might be squeezing. Which is it? Depending which, I suspect the range he puts you on when he leads the flop will differ.

Say he thinks you might have been squeezing. B isn't necessarily super-strong either. So, why does A have to be?

Also, what if he does think you're extremely tight and doesn't put squeezes in your range? What is that range? KK+ AK? Say he has AQ, assumes B is likely to fold and that since you're very tight, that you'll fold AK and maybe KK. This scenario does involve making multiple assumptions, but it doesn't seem completely unreasonable, particularly if he's on the aggressive side.

He's betting 1500 to try to win the pot of 2250 when the card odds against your presumed KK+ AK range are nearly 50/50. I realize B won't auto-fold, but if he won't continue often enough to negate the pot odds, it still seems at least slightly +EV for A to bet if he's holding a decent pair.

If A were not a very strong player, I'd be likely to think like you, that leading the flop means he's very strong. But since he is, I think I have to consider the possibility he's thinking at the next level.

 

[WiZZiM]

i honestly think that you might be giving villian too much credit too soon. consider the possibility that villian is actually making a bad play here, and perhaps that he is not as good as you might think he is. Having WSOP rings or bracelets don't necessarily mean that he is a good player or that he is making a perfect play right here and now. try to be objective about it and look at what he does in pots, basically, let him prove himself first.

I find this happens a lot when players face off against proven winning regs, or professional players. They ask why did he make that play, or try to rationalize why they make a play, or automatically assume it's a good play, when in fact the professional probably just made a bad play in the hand.

 

[duggs]

What makes you say that 1ks are uber soft? There aren't many tourneys offered above $1k most of the time...so do you think EVERYTHING under $10k is "soft". Or do you just assume that all live play is soft?

And even if that us true...did you read my description if this player? 3 WSOP circuit rings and 1 WSOP bracelet. So even if you really do believe that a field is soft...if you're in a hand with a very talented player you need to adjust.

But, still I can see the merit to calling on the flop. Even though I didn't include AQ in the range, it would make sense with the preflop action and flop bet.

So if I call on the flop, I need to have a plan.

What to do if I'm facing a turn bet? (Most likely all in)

What to do if the turn is checked to me?

iv played exactly 1ks i guess, always found the fields incredibly soft, know plenty of people who say the same. and yes live play up to the 1k buy in and 300nl level is incredibly soft yes.

more over if you are playing a player you think is better than you, revert to nash, don't fold the top whatever% of your range and call down with it.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Having WSOP rings or bracelets don't necessarily mean that he is a good player or that he is making a perfect play right here and now.

Well, I think multiple wsop titles with jewelry DOES pretty much indicate a good player...I mean there's never a guarantee on your assessment of a villain but that's about the best "evidence" you're ever gonna get in a live game on a villain.

HOWEVER, you're correct that it still doesn't mean he's making a perfect play right here...even good players make weird or bad plays sometimes. So yes, I may be giving villain too much credit.

...more over if you are playing a player you think is better than you, revert to nash, don't fold the top whatever% of your range and call down with it.

That's a really good point, thanks. Sometimes it's hard in the heat of the moment to keep all your priorities and considerations straight. I kinda forgot about this one, so a welcome reminder

 

[duggs]

Again, what's your 3betting range preflop here

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

Again, what's your 3betting range preflop here

Must be a tight 3 bet range with the description given by OP.

 

[duggs]

We need to know his 3betting range preflop here. It changes alot

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

A couple hours in to the tournament ive only seen villain 3bet once. Got 4bet then villain 5bet all in and the other player folded. The sample size is waaaay to small to accurately assign a range to it but I'd say it is very tight. This player really seemed to like to play small ball and inflate the pot on the turn.

So if I had to assign a range Id say KK+ But again it's hard to know. As the blinds get bigger my 3bet range usually widens as my focus shifts to taking down preflop or on the flop with high blinds. I'd imagine this is true for other players as well

 

[duggs]

So your 3bet ranges is KK+? That's instantly an isse

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I don't understand if you're asking my 3bet range, or their 3bet range?

I don't have a 3bet range. It depends on the player and situation. Sometimes I 3bet with 55 or 68s. My 3bet range for THIS situation would have been something like KK and AA. I would probably flat and close the action in position with AK and JJ... So QQ would be the decision hand for me in THIS spot.

For villain, their 3bet range in this spot doesn't apply since they cannot. But their 4bet range I would guess is something like KK, AA.

In live poker it has to do with the players and situation much more than the actual cards you hold. I truly believe live poker is a game of people and situations, not a game of cards. So having different ranges for different opponents is appropriate. You put me in the SB and I'll 3bet wider because I don't want to play a hand like AK multiway out of position.

 

[duggs]

whats your 3betting range pre?

Again, what's your 3betting range preflop here

So your 3bet ranges is KK+? That's instantly an isse

I don't understand if you're asking my 3bet range, or their 3bet range?

I don't have a 3bet range. It depends on the player and situation. Sometimes I 3bet with 55 or 68s. My 3bet range for THIS situation would have been something like KK and AA. I would probably flat and close the action in position with AK and JJ... So QQ would be the decision hand for me in THIS spot.

For villain, their 3bet range in this spot doesn't apply since they cannot. But their 4bet range I would guess is something like KK, AA.

In live poker it has to do with the players and situation much more than the actual cards you hold. I truly believe live poker is a game of people and situations, not a game of cards. So having different ranges for different opponents is appropriate. You put me in the SB and I'll 3bet wider because I don't want to play a hand like AK multiway out of position.

3betting ranges are obv dynamic, i didn't think i had to act "In this specific spot" as its implied...

3betting only KK+ is clearly a mistake especially against a good opponent.
it does mean we can theoretically fold this hand on the flop. but i think the major mistake is having a very unbalanced range.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

We need to know his 3betting range preflop here. It changes alot

ok. you're right. it's perfectly clear. I'm dumb, as usual and my preflop play is the problem, as usual, and live is super soft, as usual.

thanks for taking the time to humor me.

yes...I probably played this hand poorly. That's why I'm still thinking about it almost a year later, and that's why I posted it for review.

thanks for being patient.

 

[duggs]

ok. you're right. it's perfectly clear. I'm dumb, as usual and my preflop play is the problem, as usual, and live is super soft, as usual.

thanks for taking the time to humor me.

yes...I probably played this hand poorly. That's why I'm still thinking about it almost a year later, and that's why I posted it for review.

thanks for being patient.

sigh you got me, hand by itself pre is obv fine, the real issue is playing uber tight v someone good, a better strategy is to try be balanced so he can't own us. I'm likely calling down given we don't have sets in our range,

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

sigh you got me, hand by itself pre is obv fine, the real issue is playing uber tight v someone good, a better strategy is to try be balanced so he can't own us. I'm likely calling down given we don't have sets in our range,

I think you're probably right in calling on the flop.

But do we call on the flop with the intention of calling down the whole way? (provided no ace hits)

again...I know it's hard to perceive tone online so I'm not trying be condescending or stubborn, or to beat a dead horse...I honestly am asking if I call on the flop what do I do on the turn and the river? I want to have a plan at least 1 street ahead is my goal these days.