$1 NLHE: What to do when flop decent hand on free flop?

[spore]

$1 NL HE: What to do when flop decent hand on free flop?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 54/8/2.67

I am terrible with these situations... no preflop action, forced to flop and I hit something.. did I play this correctly at all?

Stacks:
MP2 with 2095
CO with 1360
BTN with 1510
SB with 1420
BB with 1470
UTG with 1640
UTG+1 with 2265
MP1 with 1740

Blinds: 15/30
Site: Pokerstars
Dealt to BB:6♥ 4♥
Sklansky group 7

Preflop:
1 players fold.
UTG+1 calls [30]
1 players fold.
MP2 calls [30]
CO calls [30]
1 players fold.
SB calls [15]
Hero: checks
Total folds this street: 3
Potsize: 150

Flop:
J♥ 4♣ 6♦

SB: checks
Hero: checks
UTG+1: checks
MP2 bets [30]
CO raises 30 to 60
1 players fold.
Hero raises 180 to 240
1 players fold.
MP2 calls [210]
CO calls [180]
Total folds this street: 2
Potsize: 870

Turn:
8♠

Hero bets [350]
MP2 raises 1475 to 1825 [ all-in ]
1 players fold.
Hero calls [850] [ all-in ]
Uncalled bet (625) returned to MP2
Total folds this street: 1
Potsize: 3895

River:
5♦

Results:

 

[only_bridge]

It totaly depends, but with 2 lower pairs I would bet to protect my hand. Its 2 pairs, but not a very strong hand, and if checked you might end up losing a very big pot.
If you had had top 2 pairs however, then that would be a much stronger hand.

 

[Melkor]

When we are thinking of slowplaying we have to look at the reasons to slowplay. Sometimes, our hand is so strong that we are not scared of being drawn out on and we play slowly as it is unlikely the board hit anyone else. Other times it is because we are facing a specific opponent who is aggressive and likely to bluff at a show of weakness and we try to let him hang himself. It might also be simply to balance our play. At all times the bottomline is we are being deceptive to induce extra value that we may otherwise have not got.

Here, I would say it fits no reason to slowplay. Our hand is not greatly strong and there are a few turncards we don't like to see and certainly none we want to give for free. We are facing many opponents, none of whom have shown aggression preflop and therefore nobody with momentum to continue with on the flop. Most importantly, though, is that because it is a BB special our hand is already decpetive and we have a massively wide range here. Slowplaying, e.g. check raising, narrows our range considerably. Betting keeps a lot of hands in the picture. Bottomline, we don't need to be deceptive to induce extra value we otherwise wouldn't have got. To the contrary, I believe we would lose value by giving away we are strong when we eventually make a move.

There are no draws so we are not going to see a turncard, bar another J, that we don't want to get it in with. Therefore, we should be looking to build a pot. Maybe we lead and the 4 villains fold but I would say there is a decent chance someone has something here. Jacks are in everyone's range and all the pairs that are in people's ranges as well will not want to give up. A bet of around 100-120 will see the jacks at least call and the pairs call. We can then either go all-in on the flop and if we are behind or get drawn out on it is a cooler or lead again at the turn and play the hand strictly for value.

Bet this flop for value.

 

[spunka]

There are no draws so we are not going to see a turncard, bar another J, that we don't want to get it in with.

You have a stack of limpers and 4c, 6d, think you could have a straight draw here, and with the 8 it could be completed, and with the 5, gee someone holding a 7 might just move all in or ....

I don't like this with 2 callers and that board, and I would not have bet 350 post turn, I would rather checkraise or fold.

And I would not have called an AI not with that straight and maybe a set against me, that he stay in the pot after my preflop bet, tells me to be very carefull and my hand is NOT that strong, on the other hand it could be a player like me ( a donk) overplaying an AJ....

 

[Melkor]

You have a stack of limpers and 4c, 6d, think you could have a straight draw here, and with the 8 it could be completed, and with the 5, gee someone holding a 7 might just move all in or ....

I don't like this with 2 callers and that board, and I would not have bet 350 post turn, I would rather checkraise or fold.

And I would not have called an AI not with that straight and maybe a set against me, that he stay in the pot after my preflop bet, tells me to be very carefull and my hand is NOT that strong, on the other hand it could be a player like me ( a donk) overplaying an AJ....

There is always the outside possibility of a draw but it is not to be worried about. On this flop JK or QJ or JT will stack all the time, nevermind AJ.

I was more talking about how to play the flop anyway but on the turn, which is pretty safe, I would still get it as the jacks are all still possibilities.

 

[spore]

Take the stats into consideration... is it not okay to check/raise a 54/8/2.67?

 

[Melkor]

Take the stats into consideration... is it not okay to check/raise a 54/8/2.67?

I don't see what more it would achieve than betting into him. He is going bananas with a jack either way.

 

[spore]

This hand is still haunting me... can anyone give me some numbers on the correct decision here?

 

[Melkor]

This hand is still haunting me... can anyone give me some numbers on the correct decision here?

What numbers are you wanting? If you are talking about your turn decision then the pot odds when shoves are 850 into ~3000 so 3.5:1 or around there which means you have to behind over 75% of the time to fold. You are not behind that often because as a jack turns up here often.

Just bet the flop next time and shove over a raise.

 

[spore]

Ah, that makes sense. I guess I wanted something like shove vs. fold equity on the turn as it relates to prize equity. But maybe it wasn't that tough of a decision.

However when I look at it, I see this..

JJ, 44, 66, J6, J4, 57, 88, 68, J8 = hands that beat me on turn
AJ, KJ, QJ, JT are likely hands that I beat (is villain here capable of shoving with a smaller jack?)
doubt AA, KK, QQ as villain would have raised those preflop
Also the small possibility of a bluff (has to be small like 1-2%)

so it looks like, realistically, 9 hands that beat me and 4 that I beat. Which means I am ahead 44% of the time so considering pot odds I'd have to be 25% to fold? We might even bump that 44% up for the 1-2% bluff chance.

 

[robert_wrath]

I believe you played the hand correct till the turn. You could have bet the pot to find out how strong the other two opponents Jack is. If a 9 or higher hit the turn, you can play a 1/2 pot bet. However, an 8 spiked the board. Yes maybe one of them called with 5 / 7 suited or worse limped in with poocket 4s / 6s. Either way, the result may have been the same.

 

[spunka]

Ah, that makes sense. I guess I wanted something like shove vs. fold equity on the turn as it relates to prize equity. But maybe it wasn't that tough of a decision.

However when I look at it, I see this..

JJ, 44, 66, J6, J4, 57, 88, 68, J8 = hands that beat me on turn
AJ, KJ, QJ, JT are likely hands that I beat (is villain here capable of shoving with a smaller jack?)
doubt AA, KK, QQ as villain would have raised those preflop
Also the small possibility of a bluff (has to be small like 1-2%)

so it looks like, realistically, 9 hands that beat me and 4 that I beat. Which means I am ahead 44% of the time so considering pot odds I'd have to be 25% to fold? We might even bump that 44% up for the 1-2% bluff chance.

also all x 7 beats you A7 K7 etc...

That would be right in a cash game to use strict pot odds, however maybe not in a tournament game if you call and lose you have lost your money, and can't use the info you get, due to, your dead in the tournament. If you fold your still alive with ½ of your stack. This guy sees a lot of pots, he will only stay if he makes something, and on top of that MP2 moves AI with a player after him still to act. For me it's a fold I really don't like that straight, I don't like it at all.

 

[godoy]

well, I think you were waaaay ahead on the flop, but after the turn it would be a dificcult decision, after the river would be a insta fold, any j7 or anything 7 would beat you, after the turn you didn't have much to do, I would call it the same way

 

[spore]

also all x 7 beats you A7 K7 etc...

That would be right in a cash game to use strict pot odds, however maybe not in a tournament game if you call and lose you have lost your money, and can't use the info you get, due to, your dead in the tournament. If you fold your still alive with ½ of your stack. This guy sees a lot of pots, he will only stay if he makes something, and on top of that MP2 moves AI with a player after him still to act. For me it's a fold I really don't like that straight, I don't like it at all.

Any 7 beats me on the river the discussion is about the flop/turn play as we were all-in before the river. 57 is the only straight on the turn.