$1 NLHE STT: $1 NLHE STT: AQo with flush draw - a hero call?

[TheArnie]

Can this be considered a hero call? Any ideas of how this hand should have been played? I know AQ is a notorious hand, but it seemed like a decent flop.


Seat 1: twix100 (1,755)
Seat 2: TheArnie (1,335)
Seat 3: melaobko (4,010)
Seat 4: Thot1er (1,935)
Seat 5: couchpotato84 (1,560)
Seat 6: chice73 (1,500)
Seat 9: geeza09 (1,405)
Thot1er posts the small blind of 20
couchpotato84 posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheArnie [Qh Ad]
chice73 raises to 80
geeza09 calls 80
twix100 folds
TheArnie raises to 160
melaobko calls 160
Thot1er folds
couchpotato84 folds
chice73 calls 80
geeza09 calls 80
*** FLOP *** [6h 8h Kh] (Total Pot: 700, 4 Players)
chice73 checks
geeza09 checks
TheArnie bets 160
melaobko raises to 1,180
chice73 folds
geeza09 folds
TheArnie calls 1,015, and is all in
melaobko shows [Ah Kc]
TheArnie shows [Qh Ad]
Uncalled bet of 5 returned to melaobko
*** TURN *** [6h 8h Kh] <font color='red'>9♥</font> (Total Pot: 3,050, 2 Players, 1 All-In)
*** RIVER *** [6h 8h Kh 9h] [Tc] (Total Pot: 3,050, 2 Players, 1 All-In)
melaobko shows a flush, Ace high
TheArnie shows a flush, King high
melaobko wins the pot (3,050) with a flush, Ace high

(sorry, couldnt convert with cardschat converter)

 

[dnegsisabadreg]

You should be raising larger pre-flop, your sizing has given every player in the pot the correct odds to call.

When he jams on the flop, we should just fold. All we have is the 2nd nut flush draw with no pair. If he has top pair, we're likely a small underdog. If he has the nut flush draw, we're a significant dog. If he has both, as he does here, we're drawing virtually dead.

 

[horizon12]

fold preflop, a very marginal situation to AQo/

 

[jordanbillie]

Yeah, folding preflop is probably best, given that this is a $1 SNG. As played, you should have checked this flop. I hate the lead on the flop and I hate the call more.

 

[jordanbillie]

You should be raising larger pre-flop, your sizing has given every player in the pot the correct odds to call.

When he jams on the flop, we should just fold. All we have is the 2nd nut flush draw with no pair. If he has top pair, we're likely a small underdog. If he has the nut flush draw, we're a significant dog. If he has both, as he does here, we're drawing virtually dead.

If 3 betting is our decision the sizing is fine. If our sizing is too large, we are priced in to call off a lot of flops, like this one.

 

[Delvuter]

Fold pre is to little w/ AQo, 3-bet pre is to much w/ AQo we just call the bet. A probe bet would be appropriate OOP on the flop and your 160 is a good amount. Fold the second he re-raises though, he is only betting here as a bluff, Ah or a K so 2/3 of those beat you and we only give him 10% of the time where he is bluffing so you are losing more than 2/3 of the time.

 

[trent32la]

lol @ fold pre, this is never a spot where it makes sense to muck AQ pre. I prefer a flat in these spots in the early stages, if you're going to 3bet, 160 is way too small, 280-320 will do in the early stage in a micro STT.

Flop is a check 4-ways and I am never calling an over shove with just 2nd nut flush draw. Our opponent is nutted with this shove and we still have a good stack behind when folding.

 

[hffjd2000]

Why call if drawing isnt the nuts or second nuts?

We might even be over underdog if he is just bluffing with Ah high only.

 

[ph_il]

Yeah, folding preflop is probably best, given that this is a $1 SNG.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[AtiFCOD]

Can this be considered a hero call? Any ideas of how this hand should have been played? I know AQ is a notorious hand, but it seemed like a decent flop.


Seat 1: twix100 (1,755)
Seat 2: TheArnie (1,335)
Seat 3: melaobko (4,010)
Seat 4: Thot1er (1,935)
Seat 5: couchpotato84 (1,560)
Seat 6: chice73 (1,500)
Seat 9: geeza09 (1,405)
Thot1er posts the small blind of 20
couchpotato84 posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheArnie [Qh Ad]
chice73 raises to 80
geeza09 calls 80
twix100 folds
TheArnie raises to 160
melaobko calls 160
Thot1er folds
couchpotato84 folds
chice73 calls 80
geeza09 calls 80
*** FLOP *** [6h 8h Kh] (Total Pot: 700, 4 Players)
chice73 checks
geeza09 checks
TheArnie bets 160
melaobko raises to 1,180
chice73 folds
geeza09 folds
TheArnie calls 1,015, and is all in
melaobko shows [Ah Kc]
TheArnie shows [Qh Ad]
Uncalled bet of 5 returned to melaobko
*** TURN *** [6h 8h Kh] <font color='red'>9♥</font> (Total Pot: 3,050, 2 Players, 1 All-In)
*** RIVER *** [6h 8h Kh 9h] [Tc] (Total Pot: 3,050, 2 Players, 1 All-In)
melaobko shows a flush, Ace high
TheArnie shows a flush, King high
melaobko wins the pot (3,050) with a flush, Ace high

(sorry, couldnt convert with cardschat converter)

It's a fold on the flop. Multiway pot: so Ah is probably (and really) in the hand of some1...
Maybe with a combo straight/flush draw call can be profitable against 2 or more pushers.

 

[WiZZiM]

flatting this preflop almost always, folding is fine if you are playing maybe 15-30 tables and you wanna keep your decision tree really small and simple. But otherwise you will be throwing equity away by not seeing a flop here.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

lol @ fold pre, this is never a spot where it makes sense to muck AQ pre. I prefer a flat in these spots in the early stages, if you're going to 3bet, 160 is way too small, 280-320 will do in the early stage in a micro STT.

Flop is a check 4-ways and I am never calling an over shove with just 2nd nut flush draw. Our opponent is nutted with this shove and we still have a good stack behind when folding.

can't improve on trent's post here. 100% agree with everything.

and while AQ is a good hand, worthy of a flat you have to realize that facing an UTG raise plus a UTG+1 flat call AQ is just an "OK" hand at that point and not a monster. Because you'll likely have position throughout the hand, flatting is the ideal preflop move.

hand should've gone: flat preflop. check back the flop. turn: you'll end up losing some chips when you make the 2nd nuts ....maybe you'll still end up losing your whole stack by the river; but it's the better way to play the hand.

 

[jordanbillie]

What does this have to do with anything?

Because in a $1 SNG with in which 5-6 people are playing each flop, you are better off tightening up and essentially folding into the money.

 

[WiZZiM]

Because in a $1 SNG with in which 5-6 people are playing each flop, you are better off tightening up and essentially folding into the money.

Really don't like this line of thought, sorry, but it does not help you move up and beat higher levels at all. And saying things like tightening up, makes people think you should fold everything but KK, when in reality the level of adjustment is only a few pips nothing more, so if you normally open 67s from the button, condiser folding that and playing more high card strength like J9o etc. You also fail to mention that loosening up in the later game has way more merit in these games, since most players are loose early and tend to tighten up too much late. This means our ideal game plan is to play a little tighter than normal early, but play a little more loose in the late game to make up for it.

Folding into the money does not really help your overall ROI, you will be left with a ton of 3rd and 2nd place finishes and very few first place finishes. It's all about probability, if you have less chips on average than your opponants when you get 4-5 handed, you WILL finish with less overall 1st place finishes, so you will need to be cashing an insane amount to make up for this.

So we are certainly never going to make profit or much of a profit by folding into the money, and with your game plan, we are also never going to be able to move up in limits which is pretty much our goal at the $1 games since the rake is high.

So what you are getting at is probably on the right track, but felt like i needed to clear your post up to make sure people don't take it the wrong way. We never as a gameplan can afford to "fold into the money" in SNG, that game used to work in 2005, but it's no longer the case.

 

[jordanbillie]

Really don't like this line of thought, sorry, but it does not help you move up and beat higher levels at all. And saying things like tightening up, makes people think you should fold everything but KK, when in reality the level of adjustment is only a few pips nothing more, so if you normally open 67s from the button, condiser folding that and playing more high card strength like J9o etc. You also fail to mention that loosening up in the later game has way more merit in these games, since most players are loose early and tend to tighten up too much late. This means our ideal game plan is to play a little tighter than normal early, but play a little more loose in the late game to make up for it.

Folding into the money does not really help your overall ROI, you will be left with a ton of 3rd and 2nd place finishes and very few first place finishes. It's all about probability, if you have less chips on average than your opponants when you get 4-5 handed, you WILL finish with less overall 1st place finishes, so you will need to be cashing an insane amount to make up for this.

So we are certainly never going to make profit or much of a profit by folding into the money, and with your game plan, we are also never going to be able to move up in limits which is pretty much our goal at the $1 games since the rake is high.

So what you are getting at is probably on the right track, but felt like i needed to clear your post up to make sure people don't take it the wrong way. We never as a gameplan can afford to "fold into the money" in SNG, that game used to work in 2005, but it's no longer the case.

I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on my post. Your analysis is spot on, I was just caught making a lazy post. On the other hand, have you played at Bovada lately? It is 2005 over there.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on my post. Your analysis is spot on, I was just caught making a lazy post. On the other hand, have you played at Bovada lately? It is 2005 over there.

Not really. Bovada is more like 2012. It's soft but you still need to play properly and aggressively.

 

[jordanbillie]

Not really. Bovada is more like 2012. It's soft but you still need to play properly and aggressively.

Well...regardless of what year it is. The games are always beatable because the majority of players refuse to get any better.

 

[WiZZiM]

I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on my post. Your analysis is spot on, I was just caught making a lazy post. On the other hand, have you played at Bovada lately? It is 2005 over there.

haha yeah i played a bit on 888 which i assume plays similar to bovada, crazy bad players even in the $20 and beyond buyins. Was a really nice change from the grind on stars.