$1 MTT How to play set vs all Diamond flop

[eNTy]

No valuable reads, at this point there are 800 players left give or take, I'm about 300th and the bubble is at 400 players left.
The average stack is about 4.5k.

pokerstars Game #20563892510: Tournament #107929838, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/09/20 19:20:48 ET
Table '107929838 49' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: andrespardi (1628 in chips)
Seat 2: Ondal (1521 in chips)
Seat 3: hillermac (7035 in chips)
Seat 4: Entiteit (7230 in chips)
Seat 5: JRabbit7744 (5185 in chips)
Seat 6: Jehosephat (5695 in chips)
Seat 7: NIXER10 (17685 in chips)
Seat 8: Jumperz123 (3815 in chips)
Seat 9: Le_Saintais (4545 in chips)
NIXER10: posts small blind 75
Jumperz123: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Entiteit [4c 4s]
Le_Saintais: folds
andrespardi: folds
Ondal: folds
hillermac: calls 150
Entiteit: calls 150
JRabbit7744: folds
Jehosephat: folds
NIXER10: calls 75
Jumperz123: checks
*** FLOP *** [3d Td 4d]
NIXER10: checks
Jumperz123: checks
hillermac: checks
Entiteit: ???

I really need some advice here. I always find this tricky. Do we bet hard and try and fold out 1 diamond hands ? I'm pretty sure we're not checking.

Also turn and river actions are appreciated,
let's have situation 1: no diamond turn
and situation 2: diamond turn.

Any help appreciated.
I might post the rest of the hand later for more advice and general responses on how I played it.

 

[switch0723]

Bet 500

on Diamond turn check behind, call a decent sized bet (all depends on size of course) if odds to chase FH are there.

On non diamond turn, bet 3/4 pot again

Edit: Also look to ship in on flop

 

[eNTy]

And what about flopped flushes ?
Do we worry about them, do we adjust our play ?

Is there any way to read it on their play or would that require actual reads on people which I never seem to have correct ?

 

[eNTy]

I would really like some more opinions people.
This is a spot i have great difficulty with. Not just sets but any flopped hand on an all 1 suit flop..

 

[Divebitch]

And what about flopped flushes ?
Do we worry about them, do we adjust our play ?

Is there any way to read it on their play or would that require actual reads on people which I never seem to have correct ?

I like switch's basic strategy. And not saying mine is better or even as good, but a couple more things to take into consideration here. First off, I'd need a little more information, like how many called your initial bet (let's say you really did) of 500. It is conceivable (if not a bit loose) the BB might call with a 5-6 for an open-ender. If the turn is not a scare card, say Qc, I might bet 3/4 or double pot RIGHT after flop - not 3/4 of the existing pot had you gotten called by 3 people. And this is just in case someone (as you feared) DID flop a weak flush, but a flush nonetheless, and also hoping for NO MORE diamonds.

Now, IF a diamond comes on the turn, well, it really depends on what the people in front of you do. Thing is, they probably thought you ALREADY had a flush. They might have just the 1 diamond - the ace - and know they now have you beat. I'd fold to any bet in front of me immediately.

If no bet, THAT is tough. On the ONE hand, if it's checked to me, I don't like checking here, because anyone with a 6d (especially if checked to the dealer) will think you are beat (which you are). Only the dealer & the guy behind him were in the hand. If they are no longer in, I'd still bet, but maybe just 500, and hope for a fold. On the OTHER hand, I WOULD check, thinking BB or UTG caught his flush, and they're waiting for me to C-bet so they can trap me in a check-raise. Like I said, tough one. Can't even comment on the river unless you caught your boat and/or the 4th diamond never hit the board.

 

[eNTy]

Ok time for the next part of the hand.

*** FLOP *** [3d Td 4d]
NIXER10: checks
Jumperz123: checks
hillermac: checks
Entiteit: bets 450
NIXER10: folds
Jumperz123: calls 450
hillermac: calls 450
*** TURN *** [3d Td 4d] [2c]
Jumperz123: checks
hillermac: bets 450
Entiteit: ????

Moves ?
Like you said, I had bet out about 500 and got called in both spots.

 

[Divebitch]

Ok time for the next part of the hand.

*** FLOP *** [3d Td 4d]
NIXER10: checks
Jumperz123: checks
hillermac: checks
Entiteit: bets 450
NIXER10: folds
Jumperz123: calls 450
hillermac: calls 450
*** TURN *** [3d Td 4d] 2♣
Jumperz123: checks
hillermac: bets 450
Entiteit: ????

Moves ?
Like you said, I had bet out about 500 and got called in both spots.

Am I good or what? There's the scare card I mentioned - the str8. Except the guy raising is NOT the BB. I don't THINK UTG calls the blinds with 5-6, even suited. I could be wrong, some love that hand, not me. Wait a minute. Oh noooooo! Hiller's got the Ad and a 5s. With only 3 parts to the str8 on the table, I don't think it's a bluff. I think he wants you to call. He could have a set of 2s though. What to do, what to do. I THINK I'm gonna wince and fold.

Anyone else?

 

[dj11]

I missed the first part , but my recommendations would have been a min bet.

MIN BET??? WTF? Only 4 players in the hand and you have postition, and a min bet will look like a value bet with a made flush. Someone may have been slow playing the flush and your only hope is to 'flush' them out. You have 10 outs (twice!) here to beat a flush, and you have a good shot at being good here. So you want to get value and a 3x bet here will likely take the pot, and while against that flop it would be a good thing, the possibility of a bigger pot sways all of us. To that end you want to find out who might be slow playing you, or on a draw. A cheap min bet will accomplish that I think. Personally I slow way up on a flushed flop, and notice that most do. You chose the bigger bet and got a caller. You should think he may be slow playing you, or on the draw, or maybe 2 p.

With the 2 c on the turn you now have 13 outs. Villain is looking for all the world like hes on a draw. If your read on him is good, you could give up here, but a reraise might rattle villain and take the pot now, should he come back over the top, you can give up then, but I like a reraise to 1500.

 

[eNTy]

With the 2 c on the turn you now have 13 outs. Villain is looking for all the world like hes on a draw. If your read on him is good, you could give up here, but a reraise might rattle villain and take the pot now, should he come back over the top, you can give up then, but I like a reraise to 1500.

I am confused. Are u aware there are 2 villains at this point ?
Jumper checked and hiller bet the turn.

So if I read your post correctly, you are talking about hiller as the villain correct ? And suggest we reraise him about 1500. Problem is we do have 2 villains at this point. So say we reraise, what about Jumper ? The one who checked the turn.

I shall show the rest later, after a few more responses.

 

[Divebitch]

With the 2 c on the turn you now have 13 outs. Villain is looking for all the world like hes on a draw. If your read on him is good, you could give up here, but a reraise might rattle villain and take the pot now, should he come back over the top, you can give up then, but I like a reraise to 1500.

Okay, let's say folding here is out of the question. Wouldn't you say a call is sufficient? Like let him think YOU are slow-playing HIM? Or at least look like you intend to call anything he puts out there? What if he even just calls your reraise? Will you be prepared to call another on the river if you don't catch your boat? I just don't see how, if after hero raising post-flop with 3 diamonds out there, is gonna try to scare you with a 3-part str8 on the table.

Could you please explain where you got 13 outs? I counted 10. 3-10s, 3-3s, 3-2s, and a 4. Thanks.

 

[dj11]

Okay, let's say folding here is out of the question. Wouldn't you say a call is sufficient? Like let him think YOU are slow-playing HIM? Or at least look like you intend to call anything he puts out there? What if he even just calls your reraise? Will you be prepared to call another on the river if you don't catch your boat? I just don't see how, if after hero raising post-flop with 3 diamonds out there, is gonna try to scare you with a 3-part str8 on the table.

Could you please explain where you got 13 outs? I counted 10. 3-10s, 3-3s, 3-2s, and a 4. Thanks.

My mistake, I double counted the 4's. 10 outs is correct. Still playable.

This is one of those hands where once the initial decision to get involved is made, it doesn't stop. I did mention that of all the flops in the world, a flush flop is one of the scariest. I don't remember folding a set or trips against a flushed flop, but I can see me doing it. But in this case enty chooses to continue. Is there a correct way here? I don't think so. There are actually several hands that are in play, 4 potential sets, (though a set of 2's is highly suspect), and all made flushes, and most flush draws. Not to mention 2 straights or straight draws.

A call here invites an over top from Jumper. Whether he avails himself of this opportunity or not is a read dependent thing.. A raise here Pushes the notion that you have the made flush and a straight will have to back down. Plus your raise commits Jumper and you want to involve that aspect into his decision. Unfortunately if he calls your raise your are probably beat unless the board pairs, and even then might be beat to the high set/fh/quads.

This is such a read dependent situation, that the slow play limp along concept is reasonable except that it gives Last to act a big edge.

It is reasonable to concede one of the villains has the A for a nut flush or nut draw.

Had I started with the devils advocate position of mucking on the flop, I could be equally swayed that way still.

 

[Divebitch]

My mistake, I double counted the 4's. 10 outs is correct. Still playable.

This is one of those hands where once the initial decision to get involved is made, it doesn't stop. I did mention that of all the flops in the world, a flush flop is one of the scariest. I don't remember folding a set or trips against a flushed flop, but I can see me doing it. But in this case enty chooses to continue. Is there a correct way here? I don't think so. There are actually several hands that are in play, 4 potential sets, (though a set of 2's is highly suspect), and all made flushes, and most flush draws. Not to mention 2 straights or straight draws.

A call here invites an over top from Jumper. Whether he avails himself of this opportunity or not is a read dependent thing. A raise here Pushes the notion that you have the made flush and a straight will have to back down. Plus your raise commits Jumper and you want to involve that aspect into his decision. Unfortunately if he calls your raise your are probably beat unless the board pairs, and even then might be beat to the high set/fh/quads.

This is such a read dependent situation, that the slow play limp along concept is reasonable except that it gives Last to act a big edge.

It is reasonable to concede one of the villains has the A for a nut flush or nut draw.

Had I started with the devils advocate position of mucking on the flop, I could be equally swayed that way still.

Enty did start off by saying 'no valuable reads', and that's why I erred on the side of caution. Good point on the 'last to act'. Guess I never considered the fact the button might raise. I figured a call or fold. I'm far more worried about Hilly, the button will call almost anything if most have folded. Still, 1500 seemed a lot to me. You're right, nothing scary like a flush that isn't yours or gonna be yours if another diamond comes. They'd probably get a read on me by my hesitation at the point we're at. Looking forward to seeing what Hilly has. This is really a good one. Stay tuned.

 

[eNTy]

*** TURN *** [3d Td 4d] [2c]
Jumperz123: checks
hillermac: bets 450
Entiteit: raises 1200 to 1650
Jumperz123: raises 1200 to 2850
hillermac: calls 2400
Entiteit: calls 1200
*** RIVER *** [3d Td 4d 2c] [Ts]
Jumperz123: bets 150
hillermac: calls 150
Entiteit: raises 3630 to 3780 and is all-in
Jumperz123: calls 215 and is all-in
hillermac: folds
Uncalled bet (3415) returned to Entiteit
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Entiteit: shows [4c 4s] (a full house, Fours full of Tens)
Jumperz123: shows [2d Kd] (a flush, King high)
Entiteit collected 11380 from pot

Lucky suckout

 

[pedroman7]

I think this all gos back to the old saying... Don't go broke in an unraised pot. With a board like you had on the turn I think just calling would be the play. I like the flop bet but with hiller's lead on the turn you have think you might be beat. I say just call here and try to see a cheap river. With the reraise behind you, you should really think about maybe folding. I think the key here is to narrow the field on the flop and if you get more than one call slow down and try to see a cheap showdown unless you get lucky and fill up of course.

 

[Divebitch]

I think this all gos back to the old saying... Don't go broke in an unraised pot. With a board like you had on the turn I think just calling would be the play. I like the flop bet but with hiller's lead on the turn you have think you might be beat. I say just call here and try to see a cheap river. With the reraise behind you, you should really think about maybe folding. I think the key here is to narrow the field on the flop and if you get more than one call slow down and try to see a cheap showdown unless you get lucky and fill up of course.

I agree with you totally. The field was narrow enough after the turn. But not only does enty raise 1200, but calls the reraise - jumperz was not going anywhere, obviously prepared to throw in the remaider of his stack. Now you've got 10 outs, less than 25% shot. Glad you made it, lady luck smiled on you. Funny, I said I was not too concerned with jumperz for the moment. He was letting everyone do his dirty work to beef up the pot, and probably not too concerned about even another diamond hitting the board. But all's well that ends well, eh.

Did Hilly give any indication of what he folded? This was what I was most curious about. I'm still thinking it was the str8 or even a weak flush (if he was tight). That's what I was actually most curious about.
Thanks for sharing the hand.

 

[Sk8surf]

ya you want too see who has hit flush or posssible draws for sure id put feeler bet out there and see if i get reraised or what happens and depending on the players im up against go from there i mean if someone pushes it in well you have too think do they have 1 card draw or what , hard too say what i would do totally depends on the player im playing at table and how good of read i have on them

 

[eNTy]

Did Hilly give any indication of what he folded? This was what I was most curious about. I'm still thinking it was the str8 or even a weak flush (if he was tight). That's what I was actually most curious about.
Thanks for sharing the hand.

Nope, but the way he played it I must say my feeling is straight too. Maybe a strong pair or 2 pair or maybe FD and trying to take away the pot on the turn thinking we were all drawing too.