$1.10 NLHE STT Turbo: All-in the best move here? Short hand

[teh_colonel_saigon]

Here it is- I left out what happened afterwards, but I'll put my thinking process at the end.

No Limit Hold'em Tournament at level 25/50
Buy-in: Turbo - $1.10
Merge Network
6 players


Stacks:
UTG - UTG (1,406)
MP - MP (2,920)
CO - Hero (1,515)
BTN - BTN (1,265)
SB - SB (529)
BB - BB (1,365)

Preflop: (75, 6 players) Hero is CO with Qd Kc
2 folds, Hero raises to 100, 1 fold, SB bets 504 (all-in), BB calls 479, Hero bets 1,415 (all-in), BB bets 836 (all-in)


I min-raise here, as 3x isn't really necessary (is 2.5 better? I think 2x does the same thing and saves me some money, with the higher blinds), though at the 10/20 and 15/30 levels I do 3x it.

Villian shoves and I know I have to call it. Since he'd shove here with most aces and kings, I would only need 1.4 : 1 to call. (It was 679 : 404)

Then the BB just flat calls. I found this to be incredibly stupid and weak.

The Pot was 1158 when it got to me, I believe it was 404 to call. It is quite likely I have the best hand. But is shoving the best idea?

I tried thinking ahead, and I figured it would be best to either fold here or shove. The problem with shoving is that it prices the BB in (right?).

Or is that ok? Perhaps this play would be all right in a cash game, but does it change in a sit n go? If i were to flat call, what would my game plan be on the flop?

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

ADDENDUM
I guess we could assume that the BB would call an all in, getting too good of a price and investing almost 1/3 his stack already. Should we try to avoid 3-way all in situations? Are they ok in some circumstances? I'm guessing in a SNG they are suboptimal.

But wouldn't a shove attempt have some fold equity? It would leave a lot of dead money as overlay too so it couldn't be too bad.

 

[thatgreekdude]

i'm folding here everyday, we're probably not too far ahead of sbs shoving range, and after bb flats it means either one or two things, he's either a weak player and is calling with some sort of middle pair,broadway or a strongish ace.. or he could be smart and be calling with a strong holding in the hope you'll come over the top. I'm folding here QKo is not a hand i'd be re-shoving with, even if bb folds i'd still consider folding i'm not 100% sure i'd be ahead of sbs range by all that much.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

raise 2.25-2.5 IMO, fold when bb just flat calls. You say you read this to be weak but how do you know he doesn't have a big A or big pp having you dominated or crushed and hoping that you do what you did and ship it?

Your hand could easily be dominated by both the sb and bb, the initial raise was ok but i'd fold as opposed to calling off 30% of my stack possibly being dominated or at least behind vs any pp or Ax. The bb is obviously not folding to the shove, so I probably flat over shoving and hope you hit two pair so you know your good but I fold over both those options.

That's my thoughts at least.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Then the BB just flat calls. I found this to be incredibly stupid and weak.

This ^ is typically AA, KK here that flats in a spot like that.

 

[JPoling]

I think that is horrible call. KQo. I could easily fold that hand on CO after seeing that. I mean lets be honest, did you really think you were ahead? I mean youre saying you think sb id any ace or king, well any ace and you are already behind. Or what is even worse AK? Not saying put him on it. Ok now BB flat calls. That right there to me SCREAMS pocket pair/AK. I mean i couod be wrong, but either way 2 people in before me i would not think I am ahead.

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

Yea I guess I was being stupid with regards to the BB...

But supposing he hadn't called, and just folded. Then call the all-in, eh?

Or should we give more credit to the 10 BB stack? Although we are behind with any ace, we get good enough odds for it. Or does the ICM suggest otherwise? (new to this concept).

Lol thanks for the feedback guyz, now I feel terrible about myself. ;_;

 

[suit2please]

Its still rather early in the SnG and still 6 handed. Min raising is meh. 2.5x is fine if you dont want to 3x but keep bet sizing consistent. KQo to the SB shove Id probably be folding. After the BB flats with no reads/stats definite fold, only reason to flat is to keep you in. Still have 1400 chips and a lot of tourney still to go.

 

[WiZZiM]

Lets get one thing straight, the difference of the 2x raise to the 2.5x raise is pretty small. Saying that min-raising is "bad" or "meh" but 2.5x is fine is just retarded. my personal preference at this stage of the SNG is 2.25x which is around 112 pre flop raise, but that doesn't mean that making it 100 is bad, it's still a raise... Anything up to a 3x raise is fine here. When you decide on a sizing, you need to be comfortable with it. Making it larger means you are more likely to get folds, but when called you have a juicy pot this is usually preferred by tight aggressive styles, you are also more likely to be in heads up pots, which is great.,

making it smaller, means you are still likely to get folds, but players will tend to call you wider, and when you are called wider, it gives others great odds to call as well meaning you will need to be able to play post flop a bit more. THis also means you will have more multiway pots, which isn't great, this is usually the loose/aggressive style, picking up tons of small pots, which can be really, really effective in micro snags, especially when the blinds get bigger.

Personal preference is just that, preference, the difference at say t50 here is very, very minimal. just keep it consistent, and don't be afraid to try out new sizings.

in regards to this hand, it's been stated its a really easy fold, the overcall should set alarm bells off in your head, and it looks like he isn't folding, he's already put in a third of his stack, i don't think he folds the rest of it very often here. just get out while you can.

if the BB didn't overcall and you faced a shove from the SB, this is where your in game reads come in. A very basic way of looking at it is, will he shove here with hands such as K8s or Q9s? if so, then call, if you think he shoves tight, then simply fold. Basically, try to put him on a rough range here and go from there. The only ICM implications here are that we need to add around 5% equity to overcome the "ICM tax". so if we need 40% equity here to make calling profitable, we actually need around 45% to make it profitable. To work out how much equity you have, work out villains range, then compare that to your hand (poker stove is good, or equilab).

paying attention and game flow also influence our decision here, did the $500 chip stack villian just lose most of his stack last hand? if so he could just be tilting or just giving up and shoving his chips in. Usually if it's kind of close and i notice the player just lost a pot, i'll tend to call. In this spot, without reads or anything, i'd default to a fold.


oh and don't feel terrible about yourself, you just hopefully learnt something. no one plays perfectly, even phil ivey will discuss hands with other players and try to improve. If we don't we're never going to get better at the game. I still ask people for their opinions on hands, i do it all the time, and i look really stupid sometimes, but i really don't care, because i'm learning things which will help me to not make that mistake in the future, and hopefully get better.

 

[Arjonius]

making it smaller, means you are still likely to get folds, but players will tend to call you wider, and when you are called wider, it gives others great odds to call as well meaning you will need to be able to play post flop a bit more. THis also means you will have more multiway pots, which isn't great, this is usually the loose/aggressive style, picking up tons of small pots, which can be really, really effective in micro snags, especially when the blinds get bigger.

To expand on this, the concept of elasticity can also apply. This means how much wider people will call can be opponent-dependent. At one end of the spectrum, some will call a smaller open a fair bit wider, while at the other, some will use the same calling range.

 

[suit2please]

Lets get one thing straight, the difference of the 2x raise to the 2.5x raise is pretty small. Saying that min-raising is "bad" or "meh" but 2.5x is fine is just retarded.

Meh is just that meh, not bad or good. But meh I guess Ill just be retarded. Don't see anything good about making a habit of min raising. '2.5x is fine' is in response to his question, its not better or worse than 2x or 3x.

"Meh. Indifference; to be used when one simply does not care."

 

[WiZZiM]

Meh is just that meh, not bad or good. But meh I guess Ill just be retarded. Don't see anything good about making a habit of min raising. '2.5x is fine' is in response to his question, its not better or worse than 2x or 3x.

"Meh. Indifference; to be used when one simply does not care."

Sorry, i edited my post and was meant to exclude the retarded part...

and yeah, i mis-interpreted your post. I kind of think of "meh" as implying it's kind of bad. It's just something i see time and time again without any actual though behind why they are suggesting to raise a certain amount.

sorry again, definitely wasn't saying you are retarded or anything.

 

[konatus]

I don't like that raise o 2x pre flop and I think you should folda against the BB.

 

[spiderman637]

I think we all have been in these sitautions a lot of times...,
Firstly i would like to tell u that 2x and 3x raise doesnt have the same effect on ur opponents....2x is a weak raise....3x is a strong raise...yes 3x and 4x seems to have the same impact these days but not 2x and 3x....
I think ur action to flat shove post flop was a good one...i really doubt the other 2 might have a much better cars than u considering the way they played out the hand....
Also i feel a note on the BB card ranges would have helped people here to better judge this situation...