$1.10 NLHE STT: Attempting a float... fail

[teh_colonel_saigon]

I tried to make a play against a tight player with a c-bet pct of 100 over a sample of 72 hands. Let me know what i did wrong, where and why. I know I did it out of position.. was that my first problem? I think it sort of works better out of position (or could at least).

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T30/T60
Buy-in: Regular - $1.10
Merge Network
7 players


Stacks:
UTG - UTG (T2,912)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (T820)
MP - MP (T2,205)
CO - CO (T3,150)
BTN - BTN (T1,365)
SB - SB (T1,683)
BB - Hero (T1,365)

Preflop: (T90, 7 players) Hero is BB with 6d 6c
4 folds, BTN raises to T120, SB calls T90, Hero calls T60

Flop: 4s Qc 8c (T360, 3 players - BTN: T1,245, SB: T1,563, Hero: T1,245)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets T180, 1 fold, Hero calls T180

Turn: 4h (T720, 2 players - BTN: T1,065, Hero: T1,065)
Hero bets T300, BTN bets T1,065 (all-in), 1 fold

 

[WiZZiM]

stick it in preflop and move onto the next hand/tournament

the general idea of a float is to call preflop with a drawing hand that can actually hit flops and have some playability. Also, you really want to have position. That way you can call or "float" the flop bet in position, and if he checks the turn, you can go ahead and bet and generally take the pot down.

So two of the main conditions of a float are not met here. A hand that plays so, so terribly postflop OOP like pocket 6's is actually a really good hand to 3bet shove here with.

One last thing keep in mind tight agressives are not the ideal players to float, they tend to double barrell more often, because their ranges are in general stronger. You are actually better off targetting certain boards and raising these players, this takes initiative away from them and it also takes the play of double barrelling away from them and puts them in a situation where they have to decide to play for their whole stack or not. Attack low boards against these players, something like 567 is a great board to attack tight players on, as it hits your range far more often than theirs. This is because their ranges are pretty easily defined preflop and they simply cannot have much that can continue postflop, especially if they have flop c-betting leaks like betting 100% of flops, basically this means they have a ton of air in their range.

so all in all, you are on the right track here, trying to exploit the tendancies. But instead of floating/hoping they give up the inititaive. Pick a spot where you have a hand that can hit some flops which isn't immediately profitable to 3bet shove with preflop, like 78s or something would be great. Then try to check/raise low boards if you are OOP, or raise low boards in position in general against players who c-bet a ton. Also, don't seek out these spots, just wait for them to present themselves, it's hard because once you know a piece of information you want to try it in every spot possible. but generally, just wait for it to come instead of pushing to "make a play" at someone.

hope that helps, if you have any questions or i didn't explain things clearly enough, let me know.

 

[hffjd2000]

Interesting.

I think on the turn. He knows he still ahead on the flop and turn.

You cant bluff him because he believes he is ahead on both streets.

He might not just be a tight player, but rather a shark.

 

[anthony c]

I agree with everyone and just wanted to add if you bet the turn your turning your hand in a bluff.U could easy be ahead if he has flush draws and if u check he could be bluffing but if he calls he has something in general.

Like they said shove pre flop and avoid getting in this tough spots as he could be semi bluffing all in and u folding best hand and when u play like u did your only guessing as if your winning.

 

[thatgreekdude]

floating OOP basically never works unless you at least have outs to improve, 66 doesn't flop great and doesn't leave you much room to improve and you always have to fold to a double barrel in this spot especially to a tight player who is generally going to be playing a stronger range, check calling flop and then leading out turn doesn't make a whole heap of sense to me either and i'm sure villain might of picked up on that, what are you trying to represent there? As said i think you are on the right lines of starting to exploit peoples tendencies and with a 100% cb percentage he certainly has a lot of air hands in his range, the problem is being OOP you can't really exploit this too much, you just got yourself in a tough spot this time.

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

Thanks for the support and criticism everyone, this has been really helpful.

But shoving pre? Lol I never thought of that. Is that really optimal with 20+ BB? We are getting a good price to set-mine, though, right? Esp. given this opponents cbet%, we'd at least make some money if we hit our set. (and according to his line of play, we know now that we'd stack him)

If he calls pre with 2 overcards we only have t90 overlay which doesn't justify the play by ICM standards. He would have to fold an awful lot- assuming this player is good (as some of you have) then I s'pose he would fold.

And we are getting a good price/implied odds to set mine, eh? So would calling pre, folding flop be the best play? Or shoving? (which i still don't understand lol)

 

[thatgreekdude]

Thanks for the support and criticism everyone, this has been really helpful.

But shoving pre? Lol I never thought of that. Is that really optimal with 20+ BB? We are getting a good price to set-mine, though, right? Esp. given this opponents cbet%, we'd at least make some money if we hit our set. (and according to his line of play, we know now that we'd stack him)

If he calls pre with 2 overcards we only have t90 overlay which doesn't justify the play by ICM standards. He would have to fold an awful lot- assuming this player is good (as some of you have) then I s'pose he would fold.

And we are getting a good price/implied odds to set mine, eh? So would calling pre, folding flop be the best play? Or shoving? (which i still don't understand lol)

Personally i wouldn't shove there, if i had less than 15 or so bigs then maybe i would if BTN was stealing a decent amount. I think it's fine to set mine and just fold if you miss.

 

[WiZZiM]

well what do you think a tight player would open here, and what do you think a tight player would call with here?

i'm only concerned about the button ranges here, i look at the SB as dead money in general.

 

[marcela_lula]

the best way to float before the bubble is steal the blinds because if you think the sb and bb or will not want to risk your stack just to see a hand Might avoid

 

[RamdeeBen]

Floating OOP is really difficult to do, if you are starting to try floating then start with just doing it IP as it's difficult enough in general let alone trying OOP.

That said, now looking at your hand you're not even floating. Floating is where you're calling in position with a hand that might have a gut shot, kind of semi bluff hand with some draw equity or just two random over cards in which we intend on bluffing on future streets vs the right people. If villain is the sort to CB at a high frequency and gives up on the turn, we can profitably float IP with any random hand if the board texture is better for us than his range on the high chance we can stab and take away on the turn or river. For example, if the board comes down 478 and he CB's a lot but gives up a lot on turns we can actually float with a massive range of hands and I'd advise doing this a lot vs this sort of player.

As for this hand though, because we're OP and given he's a tight player, sure he's CB a lot but donk leading the turn really has no merit and makes no sense. We can call here I'm happy with this, especially if his CB percentage is really high. Given the turn is a great card for our hand, there is no reason what so ever to donk lead, he folds all his bluffs and shoves over with his value hands, which all have us beat. What we need to do here is see how often he's going to CB a turn with his value hands and if this is quite low and he fires again given the board texture is so dry we're likely crushed so can fold. If he checks back the turn though, we can always nearly assume he's a really bad nitty player who's checking back a value hand as strong as 77+ maybe even Qx or hands like AJ/AK which won't try bluff here. It never surprises me when tight players who have TPTK for example and get scared of paired boards so will check back but also some will value bet the turn, I guess it comes down to his frequency of betting flop and turn.

Basically I'm just calling flop and x/f the turn depending on his turn CB frequency.

 

[Arjonius]

One possible factor that hasn't been mentioned is what more you know about the opponent. For instance, is his 2x bet size normal or unusual? Has he had chances to steal before, and if so, what has he done?

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

Yea the 2x seems weak, not sure if this is his regular move from LP, perhaps I should stick to playing 1 table if I'm going to try to exploit people's tendencies like this.

So if I were in position, I'd raise his bet on the turn? Could we even do it with our stack sizes? His all in on the turn was basically betting pot. But with a draw, and knowing more about our opponent, an all in on the turn on a board where he could have only reasonably hit a Q would be alright?

I guess it's hard to speak hypothetically about these things. Thanks for all the help guys, I have learned much. Personally, I don't think it was too bad of a play, just maybe not the best ;p

 

[Tgen]

Float is not terrible OOP even though its generally weaker than IP , they work somehow differently , when you play OOP you usually steal the pot on turn by representing flush or high card by leading or checkraising , You can steal the pot IP when the opponent checks to you on turn and you dont need to represent much.

Generally though when you attemp postflop plays you need much bigger stack than 20bb , at least 40BB , in your situation you just have to shove this , there arent much you can do postflop. Shove is 100% +ev here.

 

[Arjonius]

Personally, I don't think it was too bad of a play, just maybe not the best ;p

It was closer to a bad play than to the best. As noted, it's hard to float OOP. In addition, what was your plan when you called the flop bet? What turn cards were you planning to bet? And what about the rest of the deck? What could you reasonably rep with your line, and how credibly? How well could you afford to take the line you did given the relative stack situation? What range could you reasonably put him on where he'd fold to your turn bet? The idea is to put opponents into situations where they face hard to answer questions, not to do it to yourself.

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

It was closer to a bad play than to the best. As noted, it's hard to float OOP. In addition, what was your plan when you called the flop bet? What turn cards were you planning to bet? And what about the rest of the deck? What could you reasonably rep with your line, and how credibly? How well could you afford to take the line you did given the relative stack situation? What range could you reasonably put him on where he'd fold to your turn bet? The idea is to put opponents into situations where they face hard to answer questions, not to do it to yourself.

Thanks man, I guess I didn't put as much thought as I should have into this. These questions are extremely helpful... will keep in mind.

Thanks again for the feedback, everybody.