$1.10 NLHE MTT: Do you worry about your kicker with trips?

[ManicLombax]

You can probably guess how this turned out by the question I'm asking. Maybe the answer is obvious and I'm just whining, but I've been beat with trips by trips with better kicker several times over the last week or so, which is making me reconsider. When I flop trips I'm pretty much always willing to get it in. There's one card left in the deck that gives someone else the same trips. If someone was holding a PP and flopped a boat, then I've been coolered, but that's poker.

So do you worry about the lack of a kicker here with trip 9's or are you all ready to get it in as well?

:santaclau


Poker Stars - $1.00+0.10 Tournament (#342010844) - Blinds: 40/80 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $1410.00
BB: $1740.00
UTG: $3240.00
MP: $1420.00
MP+1: $5625.00
MP+2: $2680.00
LP: $6155.00
CO Hero: $1860.00
BTN: $2600.00

Pre-flop: ($120.00) Hero is CO and dealt
UTG calls $80.00, MP folds, MP+1 calls $80.00, MP+2 folds, LP calls $80.00, Hero calls $80.00, BTN folds, SB calls $40.00, BB checks

Flop: ($480.00) (6 players)
SB bets $160.00, 3 folds, LP calls $160.00, Hero raises to $760.00, SB raises to $1170.00 (All-in), LP folds, Hero calls $570.00

 

[Jillychemung]

Yeah I worry about my kicker with trips with this many players in the pot and with middle connectors and broadway cards.

If your plan here was to stack with your 9 then shove instead of leaving that little bit behind, it serves no purpose to have a smaller than pot size bet left in your stack after your action. If villain is going to call your raise they'll call your shove.

What hand ranges is the SB betting here? If they had a big pair they'd have popped it preflop. Would the SB be inflating the pot with the NFD, doubtful, maybe a OES8FD? What range is LP flatting with? If another heart hits the board are you still committed if you just flat here?

 

[ManicLombax]

Thanks Jilly.

Yeah, I thought about bet sizing for a while here. I decided I wasn't going to be able to fold my trips, so I was going to play the hand as if I held the nuts. I threw out a big raise to try to price out draws, but maybe not so huge that everyone would fold. I wasn't planning on folding or having any fold equity if I got flatted. The rest was going in on the turn even if a flush card hit. I guess you're right it serves little purpose to leave a teeny bit left behind - most sensible players will realize I'm committed so it's the same as an all in, but I think some players see a smaller bet and will call a little more lightly than if I shove.

As far as ranges, I think SB could be leading out with a flush draw or straight draw. Not exactly sure why people do that, maybe they think of it as a blocking bet. It's possible but a little less likely he'd do this with 6x. Or he could have a 9 clearly and is building the pot. Could have an overpair he slowplayed preflop, but that's less likely. LP I think pretty similar range, but he'd raise most times if he had a 9. LP could also be calling loosely with overcards, people do that a lot in donkaments, even with people to act behind them.

 

[REI53]

Why did u call? In this spot he can only have 3 things: FH (unlikely because he didn't raise pf), A9/K9/Q9, flush draw...
I would have folded to his rr...u still had +10bbs left.

 

[Orcusan]

It makes you feel bad folding trips but , as REI53 said , you should have thought about what he is shoving with. You had a pretty bad kicker , chances are very slim he would have played 79 or 69 or 59 or anything lower than that so in that spot you should have thought you can only beat a bluff which ,,, it obviously wasnt since he shoved on the flop. He was sure of himself. Bad call....but from mistakes we learn.

 

[ManicLombax]

Really you all fold your trips getting 4.5:1 pot odds on the shove at the end? I think Jilly is right if I'm going to raise the flop I may as well shove, but I actually wanted a caller there. I'm a little scared when he comes over the top but I don't think it's worth folding to a bet of 570 chips to see a pot that's got 2570 chips in it. It's likely I'm beat but I don't think I'm ever folding here. I only need to have him turn over a worse hand or suck out on him 18% of the time to make a call good with those odds.

 

[Jillychemung]

If villain is going to call your raise they'll call your shove.

but I actually wanted a caller there.

..

 

[ManicLombax]

most sensible players will realize I'm committed so it's the same as an all in, but I think some players see a smaller bet and will call a little more lightly than if I shove.

That was my reasoning, may or may not be correct.

 

[darkassassin89]

This is hard even for me. A re raise could look like a semi bluff to hopefully get you to fold because he may have been chasing the flush draw but then again u did raise a big amount. At the lower limits the players tend to just shove when they got top pair or the obvious hands. Like OMG i hit the ace BET IT! stuff like that.

 

[Brann6]

This was a limped pot so the SB could have pretty much anything, including 66, any 9, any 2 flush cards.

You played your suited connectors for just this kind of flop, so it seems weak to be ready to fold it after you actually hit a flop you liked. Lots of players bet out paired boards or flush draws, so I don't think your flop raise was necessarily awful. You're beating all 2 pair hands, flush draws and weaker 9s. The re-pop all-in gave you the info you sought, narrowing his range to 66 and 9s. Even at the $1 level you don't find many maniacs pushing flush draws on a paired board. It's kind of spewy to raise/fold here but you still have 11BB left and could fold.

My question: Should you have just flatted the flop bet and kept the pot small?

 

[Lofwyr]

This was a limped pot so the SB could have pretty much anything, including 66, any 9, any 2 flush cards.

You played your suited connectors for just this kind of flop, so it seems weak to be ready to fold it after you actually hit a flop you liked.

This line kind of sums it up to me. I would go with Jilly's advice and shove the flop. You can't make a raise the works basically...so err on the aggressive side and shove. If you consider folding this then why did you decide to play it in the first place?

That brings me to a question: why did you limp this hand? You have just over 20bb with a LP limper (sign of weakness), you should strongly consider going for an iso-raise or even just shoving. If you choose not to raise the hand, then I would advocate folding. Your stack (and theirs) isn't quite big enough to play this for implied odds, especially when the only people in the pot all likely have weak hands that won't pay you off.

 

[TylerN]

This is hard even for me

lol are u an amazing player or what?

 

[ManicLombax]

If you consider folding this then why did you decide to play it in the first place?

Yeah, true. I didn't think very hard about folding it, the question was do I play like I have the nuts here and get it in, or do I play cautiously because there are so many limpers and someone else might have a better 9?

That brings me to a question: why did you limp this hand? You have just over 20bb with a LP limper (sign of weakness), you should strongly consider going for an iso-raise or even just shoving. If you choose not to raise the hand, then I would advocate folding. Your stack (and theirs) isn't quite big enough to play this for implied odds, especially when the only people in the pot all likely have weak hands that won't pay you off.

All very good points. I'm not a big fan of limping, but I might still do it too much, particularly at limp-happy tables.

This is one of the few cases where I'll do it. Medium suited connecters in position with multiple limpers in front of me. If I hit something, I don't even need huge implied odds to make it profitable. I'm getting 4.5:1 explicit odds when I call. Hard to calculate exactly what kind of odds you need to make a call with sc's profitable. With a pair you know your odds are 8.3:1 to flop a set, which will almost always win. With sc's the odds are 4.2:1 to flop either an open ended straight draw or a flush draw, which would at least make the hand playable. Odds of flopping trips are 73:1, so not exactly what I was expecting.

So yeah, rambling a bit. Anyone else have opinions about limping sc's here? Seems like we're all deep enough it could be profitable.

I probably should add the iso-raise to my playbook here though. More aggressive than I usually play, but gets lots of dead money into the pot most times unless the limpers are all total calling stations.