$1.10 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Rebuy: Micro newb 3-bet w/ AKo- Opp. shoves flop w/ strong draw

[teh_colonel_saigon]

$1.10 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Rebuy: Micro newb 3-bet w/ AKo- Opp. shoves flop w/ strong draw

I've seen threads around about this in the past. But now it just got personal. I was recently knocked out of a tournament due to an all-in like this. This is my 1st hand analysis I believe, and although I didn't use a converter, I think this way is understandable as well. Please let me know if this is out of line, however!

I'm in mid position with AKo in a 1.10 buy in deep MTT 9 handed.
Blinds are 75/150. My stack is 6,155. I'll give you my opponents cards pre-flop so you can critique to decisions of these Q10s clowns. ;_;

UTG+1 w/ stack of 8,680 min raises to 300.
Hero (utg + 2) reraises to 900 (please critique this if you could! I am pretty much a stranger to the 3-bet)

LP Caller w/ stack 3,803. (Calls 900 into pot of 1,560 with Qd10d. I think this is a bad call given his stack size... and our stack sizes, plus the 3-bet... he's usually crushed and hes not getting enough implied odds to call.)

Button with stack 3,538 calls 900 into a pot of now 2,460. I don't know his cards, but what could they be? Pocket pair? Lol is it even worth thinking about? Seems like a bad call, why not just shove if you have something...

SB with 13,556 calls 825 into a pot of 3,360 with 3c4c. Is this the right call? HE Mnager says he has 26% equity... but I've only 3-bet once before in this tournament, so I could be 3-betting pretty tight.

BB is the most interesting, as he acts with the most information and ended up winning this with his Qc10c. Although he has the same hand as the LP guy, he has more info and way better odds.
His stack is 9,976 and he calls 750 for a pot of 4,105. Mathematically he is loosing some money eh? Perhaps you could justify this with implied odds, as surely this pot will be fought over further.

UTG +1 cals (cards unknown).

So, flop comes 9c Ac 8d.
SB checks, BB shoves with the flush draw and gutshot, 12 outs. This seems like the correct play to me, especially when you anticipate callers.


Min raiser folds, Hero calls (I have to, right?), LP guy calls, SB calls. Pot 32k.

Turn comes 2c. River dud, so I storm to the kitchen to make ramen.


So, I'd like a critique of my play, esp preflop, as well as my opponents. I'm new to MTT, so is it common to see all ins on draws? Just multi-way draws? Does this change between game type? Hard to imagine a SnG where you could call on an 8-9 out draw. Thoughts? Did i screw up pre flop?

 

[RamdeeBen]

Firstly, don't need to tell us opponents cards as it will effect some peoples replies in giving a correct decision.

I think your pre flop raise size is ok, you could make a little smaller but given he's UTG+1 he likely has a strong range so we want to build a bigger pot.

Yes LP call is bad on his stack size, but that's fine we want people making incorrect decisions to maximise our EV.

Button is short, but we're getting in a position now of direct pot odds and him being in position makes it better, if UTG+1 or yourself bets flop and he smashes flop you will be priced in to call anyway so his effective implied odds are ok. Still though, I'd probably shove or fold depending on the hand I had so your right it's not the best call.

SB makes a fine call with a hand like this, he has a huge stack and massive implied odds. He's getting nearly 4:1 on his money and we're multiway. Him calling isn't going to effect his tournament position than he can check/fold most flops comfortable, if hits it well he can donk lead or x/r all-in.

BB has to complete here, his odds are just to good, his hand is just to good to fold and he makes a perfectly fine call.

As for the flop, his is a a very good flop for villain to donk lead and get it in when he can. His donk 2x pot shove though doesn't seem correct though, he should really want to try get some action here not folds. He has enough equity to either donk/call of the rest of his chips or simply just x/r all in.


I mean calling is fine, we have top pair top kicker facing a 2x pot raise. The guy can have so many worse Ax hands given he completed in the BB and of course he can have a lot of drawing hands all of which we have good equity. Snap calling is fine.

LP should fold for sure here this is a terrible call given his hand. SB should definitely fold the 34c too, even all his flush draw outs are going to be taken.

I think you played the hand fine as it was, I'm never folding AK on that board to a 2x pot donk shove in a $1.00 MTT's. Yes it's very common to see people shove a wide range of hands in these sorts of tournaments, QTcc didn't do anything wrong

 

[Arjonius]

ram has pretty much covered what I would have said about the pre-flop, although whether the opponents acted as they did after actually thinking out their situations as he said is another topic.

I'm not so sure I'd call the flop shove though. I might, but not instantly. It does look kind of odd, and our TPTK may well be ahead. However, we have two people yet to act whose ranges include holdings that made 2 pair or sets. SB might also still come to life, although this doesn't seem very likely.

There's also a chance BB is shoving some hand that has us beat e.g. 2 pair or a set because he sees the flush draw on the board. Not a good play, but this is a $1.10 rebuy.

Given that there are also possible multi-way pot scenarios, the conservative option of folding, which still leaves us alive with a fully playable 35bb stack, doesn't look awful,

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

Thanks for the responses. I don't think I'm a good enough player to fold there lol, I was so pissed I had so many people call my 3-bet.

I just started playing MTTs so perhaps I should have considered the benefits of folding. But if I had won that hand I could have almost just folded my way to at least the top 12.

There are so many super loose players in these things, some of them even have big stacks (I mean VPIP of 50+ and PFRs as low as 0; usually I have 50 hands on these guys.) They just give incredible odds all the time. Unfortunately, I have convinced myself not to play suited connectors, since I actually loose money on them.

 

[Arjonius]

Thanks for the responses. I don't think I'm a good enough player to fold there lol, I was so pissed I had so many people call my 3-bet.

This brings up a point that can be quite important. The more skill advantage you have, the more tournament EV becomes a factor in your decisions. There's less need to play big pots in marginal situations because you can find better spots and because you're better than average at chipping up by winning small and mid-sized pots where you aren't risking as much of your stack or your tournament life.

I just started playing MTTs so perhaps I should have considered the benefits of folding. But if I had won that hand I could have almost just folded my way to at least the top 12.

You should consider both the pros and cons of all reasonable options, not just their upsides.

There are so many super loose players in these things, some of them even have big stacks (I mean VPIP of 50+ and PFRs as low as 0; usually I have 50 hands on these guys.) They just give incredible odds all the time. Unfortunately, I have convinced myself not to play suited connectors, since I actually loose money on them.

Playing SCs when you have good pot odds doesn't automatically make it +EV to do so. It's not simply a matter of flop big and win big or miss and fold. What do you do when you flop a draw? Or second pair? Or even top pair but it's only 77? Also, how good are you at extracting value when you do flop well? How well can you get away when you fop well but not well enough?

These things and more factor into whether playing SCs is +EV. And even for winning players, they're not hugely +.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

well, ditto ramdeebam except...

I'm with arjonius on the "I don't know if it's a snap call on the flop" right here.

It's not a snap fold, for sure, but I'm not sure it's not a snap call either. The thing is it's so easy for somebody to have 2 pair or a set...and they must be strong jamming into 4 players like that, right? almost like they don't care if they get called. By the way, I like BBs line here...because the pot is so big already (relative to his stack, and relative to what he's invested) that taking it down is fine, and getting called with 12 outs is fine...

The more players in a pot, the worse TPTK is

can I fold it? honestly it depends on my level of investment in the tourney. If I feel like this is what i want to do with my day and $1 is all I want to spend, then I will find a fold. If I am trying to either build a stack or go do something else; then I will call and hope to catch AQ overplaying their hand (which is the only hand we really HOPE they have right?)

basically all we crush is AQ or possibly AJ. not out of the question, but more likely we are already crushed or "flipping" vs a combo draw (flipping with a bunch of dead money in the pot is not too bad though)

 

[WiZZiM]

this is probably a bias of mine, but generally players will slowplay 2pair+ type hands, i don't think many would just shove all in, it would be pretty rare imo. This type of play usually signifies a draw that just wants to push people off the pot with equity, or it's something scared, like a weak pair tpdk type hand. Again, many of you with disagree with this, as it is something that i noticed from experience, obviously we shouldn't let biases affect our decision too much here, but without knowing his cards, seeing an obvious flushdraw/straight draw out there just makes this a call imo, pretty much regardless of how good you are/think you are. even against the worst case hand, which is pretty much exactly what his hand is, we will be slightly ahead here (basically flipping i think). But with any type of worse Ax type hands, we dominate so much of it i think it's an easy call. obviously we never know his exact range here, but we can make smart guesses.


Just a question for the OP. did you have the King clubs in your hand by any chance? if so, knowing that you have a blocker to the nut flush draw is handy to know, also it's handy as it gives you backdoor equity in the hand. Just something to keep in mind here.

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

@WiZZiM Not sure if I did (HH is on another computer)

Yea this is just embarrassing to look back over- it's a bad habit to both overvalue TPTK in a mutli-way pot, and have an ego large enough to think people are donk-bluffing all-in. Thanks again for the help/insight, everybody.